Since the upcoming patch will remove perma cc with fear wd and shield glare sader, my thought is if we can still push higher grifts 4ppl wise. Why do i say this?
Well I find that the zdps sader and wd are what matters in terms of cleartime by how the 2 dps players do not die as often as they should by permanently locking them in place. If the zdps wd and sader's perma cc are affected by the developers, it will be a lot more difficult for groups to push higher grifts, especially 60+. In fact, mobs that give little progress are another thing to blame, but my concern next patch is if we can effectively finish 60+ rifts without perma cc regardless of even fixing monster progression. Who cares if there are the right monsters, affixes, efficiency without dying many times are what matters no matter what type of 4 ppl rift it is. It gives more time to kill the rg.
If we cannot finish a rift without the permanent crowd control even with the right amount of monsters or pylons, maps, its not ourselves to blame effort wise due to many unavoidable deaths from monsters who broke free from the cc, rather it is the developers themselves to blame for causing so much trouble and possibly having to rework it back to perma cc again in the future. Their decison to remove cc (what the glue of the group was) has really disappointed me, but who knows, there could be builds that are stronger dps wise. However, if thats the case, just wait until we die many times, leave and repair armor to a point where it is dumb design.
Blizz also stated they are working on redesigning the way monster damage scales in rifts.
Hey guys! Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to give us your feedback about scaling damage in Greater Rifts. One of the key goals of Greater Rifts is that they serve as a form of measuring stick for a characters power growth, and we feel that scaling damage is a very important element of their ability to function in this way. That said, we’re currently looking at our options for some possible adjustments to how this damage scales in the future.
We’re looking to disable permanent Crowd Control in an upcoming content patch to create more interaction with monsters at higher Greater Rifts levels. To complement that change, we will be also be evaluating how much damage monsters are dealing to players in that environment. One of our goals in the next major patch is to provide a more consistent Greater Rift experience while making sure that defensive Legendary items still matter.
ah i remember the ptr... back then there was only zdps monk...
then i got the mask(and thats all i had -- no crazy cdr or dagger) then the fun began
anyone who claims that they were doing it before me is fully of hoey
i was the first one to announce in the ptr channels "zdps wd" and everyone kept going "huh?, you mean zdps monk" ... i think i played a total of 6-8 games with it.... by the time the patch went live, if you werent zdps as a wd, you were doing it wrong.... too bad blizz cant pull logs for such data... i would like my pretty plaque and perhaps a cookie.
I too knew that they were going to take a look at the damage scaling for grifts @ binnesman5, although I find that there are so many problems that still are in grifts.
What about nasty affixes (particularly reflect damage), monsters (high or low progression), right rg, map, density, right pylons, right location to kill the rg?
If they fix damage scaling, there are so many factors I mentioned above that influence a higher grift clear time. I doubt that blizzard will address all the five problems next patch or future because they're worked up with giving new sets everytime.
With perma-cc removed and damage toned down I imagine high end progression will be a lot like speed gr's, just slowed down. That's only if they actually hit the mark on mob damage though, if they make it too high then all the dps will have to be classes that can be tanky without sacrificing much dps and maybe 1 glass cannon for RG dps.
With the nerf to monster dmg everyone will go higher than atm, they would not nerf perma cc making some gem ranks unattainable if they didn't plan on allowing us to go further in grift lvls, 80 will be the new 70.
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Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Ok, OP, it seems you've missed the point of Greater Rifts entirely.
They are meant to NOT be beat-able. They ARE the end game, which is why there is an 'infinite' amount of Greater Rifts.
Being able to perma-CC mobs completely side steps different mobs abilities. Coming soon, you'll HAVE to worry about winged assassins jumping to your DPS'ers, who will in turn have to start taking defensive skills / passives / runes. You'll now HAVE to worry about every mob type to varying degrees, which I personally think is very healthy for this game.
The fact that you're calling it 'dumb design' when different mobs types can cause huge problems for your group is very telling. I applaud Blizzard for fixing this issue, and I hope they keep up with it in the future.
I totally understand that grifts have infinite levels, but from my perspective, there would be unavoidable deaths from reflect damage, this can be stopped by both zdps characters locking them and the dps characters can shine in killing them. One important factor i somewhat said in group play grifts is how the players have no or little deaths; more deaths mean less time to complete the rift and players start to get frustrated not at the rift, but also the players to a degree by dying many times where its a point that repair armor is necessary.
This is another thing, why do we even have to repair armor in a grift? Surely the 5 second death each time is a penalty, but having to repair armor is even worse as a punishment. Remove it completely from my perspective.
I'm fine with certain mobs giving us a challenge (winged assassins) that benefit the healthiness of how difficult certain mobs can be, but right now it is to a point where their damage and leap abilities are unbalanced, lacunis too and their progression is not reflected by how difficult it is to beat them which may not relate to the topic, but it is another problem we're encountering at the moment.
I think the issue with perma cc is it produces a style of gameplay that most people from the outside looking in, would wonder how someone could call that fun. It is hard to say locking stuff down and then non stop spamming by the dps characters until it is dead, rince and repeat -is great game design and it is unlikely Blizzard wanted the top builds to be achieved via this mechanic. It is certainly not a fault of the players, they just found the most effective way to push higher grifts, but imho it is symptomatic of the current Grift scaling and design.
I think zdps support characters should still be a thing and will continue to play an important role in an effective team composition, and if Blizzard gets the next patch right, they still will be, but they should not result in such uninspired gameplay as what is happening currently.
This is really just one problem of many in relation to Grift scaling. While they should be infinite, so as to provide a never ending challenge, there should be a way to make the scaling more balanced with the way characters at end game scale (which is small steps; paragon and gem upgrades and occasional small improvements in gear). At the moment, grifts scale very suddenly to a point where defensive stats become meaningless, and either directly or indirectly, every build rolls its stats and gear to maximise dps.
Also, I know RNG is the heart of Diablo 3, and I want to continue to see lots of variety in Grifts, but I also want to see the progression mechanism fixed so that mobs with crazy hard affixes offer better progression so that people don't just fish for the perfect mobs. Idealy, if I can beat a Grift once, I should be able to do so again, or pretty close to it, regardless of the rng. At the moment, it is often hard to believe that two grifts of the same level belong to the same difficulty level, based on all the variables. It is hard for me to believe they will get all this right, but even if they take a step in the right direction, I'll be happy.
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Since the upcoming patch will remove perma cc with fear wd and shield glare sader, my thought is if we can still push higher grifts 4ppl wise. Why do i say this?
Well I find that the zdps sader and wd are what matters in terms of cleartime by how the 2 dps players do not die as often as they should by permanently locking them in place. If the zdps wd and sader's perma cc are affected by the developers, it will be a lot more difficult for groups to push higher grifts, especially 60+. In fact, mobs that give little progress are another thing to blame, but my concern next patch is if we can effectively finish 60+ rifts without perma cc regardless of even fixing monster progression. Who cares if there are the right monsters, affixes, efficiency without dying many times are what matters no matter what type of 4 ppl rift it is. It gives more time to kill the rg.
If we cannot finish a rift without the permanent crowd control even with the right amount of monsters or pylons, maps, its not ourselves to blame effort wise due to many unavoidable deaths from monsters who broke free from the cc, rather it is the developers themselves to blame for causing so much trouble and possibly having to rework it back to perma cc again in the future. Their decison to remove cc (what the glue of the group was) has really disappointed me, but who knows, there could be builds that are stronger dps wise. However, if thats the case, just wait until we die many times, leave and repair armor to a point where it is dumb design.
Blizz also stated they are working on redesigning the way monster damage scales in rifts.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/17084278675?page=4#75
ah i remember the ptr... back then there was only zdps monk...
then i got the mask(and thats all i had -- no crazy cdr or dagger) then the fun began
anyone who claims that they were doing it before me is fully of hoey
i was the first one to announce in the ptr channels "zdps wd" and everyone kept going "huh?, you mean zdps monk" ... i think i played a total of 6-8 games with it.... by the time the patch went live, if you werent zdps as a wd, you were doing it wrong.... too bad blizz cant pull logs for such data... i would like my pretty plaque and perhaps a cookie.
good bye spec -- you were fun while you lasted.
I too knew that they were going to take a look at the damage scaling for grifts @ binnesman5, although I find that there are so many problems that still are in grifts.
What about nasty affixes (particularly reflect damage), monsters (high or low progression), right rg, map, density, right pylons, right location to kill the rg?
If they fix damage scaling, there are so many factors I mentioned above that influence a higher grift clear time. I doubt that blizzard will address all the five problems next patch or future because they're worked up with giving new sets everytime.
BLizz already completely broke the game with ZDPS being able to perma CC elite packs with 100+ billion hp when they cant solo T3
With perma-cc removed and damage toned down I imagine high end progression will be a lot like speed gr's, just slowed down. That's only if they actually hit the mark on mob damage though, if they make it too high then all the dps will have to be classes that can be tanky without sacrificing much dps and maybe 1 glass cannon for RG dps.
With the nerf to monster dmg everyone will go higher than atm, they would not nerf perma cc making some gem ranks unattainable if they didn't plan on allowing us to go further in grift lvls, 80 will be the new 70.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Ok, OP, it seems you've missed the point of Greater Rifts entirely.
They are meant to NOT be beat-able. They ARE the end game, which is why there is an 'infinite' amount of Greater Rifts.
Being able to perma-CC mobs completely side steps different mobs abilities. Coming soon, you'll HAVE to worry about winged assassins jumping to your DPS'ers, who will in turn have to start taking defensive skills / passives / runes. You'll now HAVE to worry about every mob type to varying degrees, which I personally think is very healthy for this game.
The fact that you're calling it 'dumb design' when different mobs types can cause huge problems for your group is very telling. I applaud Blizzard for fixing this issue, and I hope they keep up with it in the future.
@Bleu42
I totally understand that grifts have infinite levels, but from my perspective, there would be unavoidable deaths from reflect damage, this can be stopped by both zdps characters locking them and the dps characters can shine in killing them. One important factor i somewhat said in group play grifts is how the players have no or little deaths; more deaths mean less time to complete the rift and players start to get frustrated not at the rift, but also the players to a degree by dying many times where its a point that repair armor is necessary.
This is another thing, why do we even have to repair armor in a grift? Surely the 5 second death each time is a penalty, but having to repair armor is even worse as a punishment. Remove it completely from my perspective.
I'm fine with certain mobs giving us a challenge (winged assassins) that benefit the healthiness of how difficult certain mobs can be, but right now it is to a point where their damage and leap abilities are unbalanced, lacunis too and their progression is not reflected by how difficult it is to beat them which may not relate to the topic, but it is another problem we're encountering at the moment.
I think the issue with perma cc is it produces a style of gameplay that most people from the outside looking in, would wonder how someone could call that fun. It is hard to say locking stuff down and then non stop spamming by the dps characters until it is dead, rince and repeat -is great game design and it is unlikely Blizzard wanted the top builds to be achieved via this mechanic. It is certainly not a fault of the players, they just found the most effective way to push higher grifts, but imho it is symptomatic of the current Grift scaling and design.
I think zdps support characters should still be a thing and will continue to play an important role in an effective team composition, and if Blizzard gets the next patch right, they still will be, but they should not result in such uninspired gameplay as what is happening currently.
This is really just one problem of many in relation to Grift scaling. While they should be infinite, so as to provide a never ending challenge, there should be a way to make the scaling more balanced with the way characters at end game scale (which is small steps; paragon and gem upgrades and occasional small improvements in gear). At the moment, grifts scale very suddenly to a point where defensive stats become meaningless, and either directly or indirectly, every build rolls its stats and gear to maximise dps.
Also, I know RNG is the heart of Diablo 3, and I want to continue to see lots of variety in Grifts, but I also want to see the progression mechanism fixed so that mobs with crazy hard affixes offer better progression so that people don't just fish for the perfect mobs. Idealy, if I can beat a Grift once, I should be able to do so again, or pretty close to it, regardless of the rng. At the moment, it is often hard to believe that two grifts of the same level belong to the same difficulty level, based on all the variables. It is hard for me to believe they will get all this right, but even if they take a step in the right direction, I'll be happy.