Kind of amazed at how defensive people are getting about the xp gear and/or totally misunderstanding OPs point. He's just saying he feels compelled to play support, which is good, so he can wear xp gear, and that even on support if there was no xp gear, he could do more damage / provide more support to the team...but he feels compelled to wear the xp gear because it provides such a large boost to xp.
there's always something to complain about regarding D3 isn't it? If it isn't about players who got onto the leaderboards thru GR fishing, it's about why another set legendary from another class is more OP, or it's about players chasing paragon levels..... it never ends.
Just play the game the way you want to play it and enjoy yourself. Yes, the game does frustrate us at times. God knows I've thrown countless mice out my window in a fit of anger; but that's why we love and hate this friggin game. It torments us and like gluttons we come back for more punishment.
If your play style is more aggressive then play it the way you like it - go full DPS
If your goal is to chase paragon levels and want to reach P10000000, then go for it
If you love climbing the leaderboards, then focus on your own craft and hone your play skills
There is something for everyone, not ONE for everyone.
All the hate for zdps and leech gear now wtf just think how much worse it will be when the classes that currently play zdps cant find groups if their changes go through they are talking about
I don't see a problem with supports using XP gear, as long as it doesn't limit their capability to do their job.
For example, while i am using allmost full xp gear on my zdps monk, i realized that using Leorics Signet instead of that Zodiac ring (the one that reduces cooldowns whenever you spend resources) lets me use my skills a lot less frequently. If i insisted on using Leorics anyways, it would decrease my performance and at that point, i would really start to consider myself a leecher instead of a dedicated support who happens to have the benefit of being able to wear xp gear.
However, i do see the problem for people who just don't want to play a support and therefore have a much harder time getting their paragon level up.
Personally, i don't mind having to play a support when i want to level more effectively because i find it to be just as much fun as being a dps. If someone just doesn't like the support role though, i don't think that he should be punished for that by leveling much slower...
If there was no xp gear, i wouldn't really mind: When playing my dps, i wouldn't have to feel like im losing out on experience gains and when playing my support, i might feel less limited when it comes to effective gear setups (though of course i can also just ignore the xp and focus on other stuff right now) and would find a grp much easier (not that im really having problems now) since there would most likely be much less supports than now.
On the other hand, people who only play dps might find that they have a much harder time finding a good support for their grp and realize that not having a "leecher" slows their leveling down even more than just not wearing xp gear themselves...
tl;dr:
I like playing dps and i also like playing support. The fact that i can use "leech" gear while supporting my grp, is pretty nice. If there wasn't any xp gear, i'd still be happy to play a support char from time to time. It wouldn't make that much of a difference to me...
However, those of you who only want to play dps and cry about the unfairness of "leech gear", might not be too happy if that was actually changed and many current "leechers" would give up on the support role. Then, to build an effective grp, you would have to put up with all that arrogance you are showing right now from the other side...
PS: In my own experience ingame, i have never met any dps who considered me a leecher or anything like that when i played support. Even with the xp gear motivating people to play zdps, it's still much easier to find a decent grp as a support than as a dps.
Blues have already covered this topic. It's gonna change.
In the meantime, just make the support/leech bring the keys, and have the dps recycle. Less work for them, in exchange for the support getting higher exp.
Ugh, why do I not trust Blizzard to make adequate changes to support builds? I feel like they're just going to crush support altogether, making such builds useless. In any rpg I've played with others, I've found the role of support far more gratifying. In WoW I always gravitated towards tanking, and to a lesser extent healing. Sure, being able to effectively deal damage while avoiding damage can be fun, but for me, being able to protect your party and buff your party has always felt far more useful. And blizz has the terrible habit of being unable to find balance. It's either all or nothing for them. so RIP support builds soon, guess its back to DHmasterrace.
Ugh, why do I not trust Blizzard to make adequate changes to support builds? I feel like they're just going to crush support altogether, making such builds useless. In any rpg I've played with others, I've found the role of support far more gratifying. In WoW I always gravitated towards tanking, and to a lesser extent healing. Sure, being able to effectively deal damage while avoiding damage can be fun, but for me, being able to protect your party and buff your party has always felt far more useful. And blizz has the terrible habit of being unable to find balance. It's either all or nothing for them. so RIP support builds soon, guess its back to DHmasterrace.
With a short research, i've only found a blue post about them not liking perma-stun. It seems, their plan is to get rid of that in order to force supports to focus more on their defenses. Doesn't sound too bad to me, actually... I think that with a change like that, supports will only become more important, even if they lose the ability to gear primary towards max experience gain.
True support builds don't go ham on experience gear. Zsader for example. Yeah, you get some bonus exp from Borne's. But that should be the end of it. You should be stacking defensive stats, immunity neck, and cdr. One of the prime examples of stacking bonus exp is putting a ruby in a Leoric's Crown. Well, that's a HUGE chunk of CDR. On my zsader I have only 3 or so seconds of downtime on AC:P at ~73% cdr. Remove the diamond from my helm and the downtime is shit. You also lose perma-law, if you use condemn it feels clunky, your blind is less reliable, etc. Yeah you can use In-Geom to negate this in lesser rifts being run for speed, but that that point who cares? The support is still doing their job, and its only actually efficient for them to use exp gear if the group they're with is quite good, and perma blinds, perma fears, they're all secondary to buffing the group's damage and speed and efficiently grouping mobs. I dunno, as for how blizz might change it, I simply feel like things tend to be either black or white for them and they haven't seem to like support builds in this game anyway, so I feel like they're going to, instead of working to create an interesting and enjoyable support playstyle for some/all of the classes, they're simply going to destroy a playstyle which is actually quite enjoyable for a lot of people. Pure speculation and lack of trust in Blizz on my part tho, I'll admit that.
Yeah you can use In-Geom to negate this in lesser rifts being run for speed, but that that point who cares?
I'm not a big fan of In-Geom as imo there are way better choices for your weapon(s) but in my experience, running an Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac is very helpful in terms of CDR. Reducing an active Cooldown by 1sec every time you spend resources might not sound that much at first but if you already have a decent amount of CDR, it makes a huge difference on that relatively small downtime that is still left. Adding another 25% CDR from a perfect Leorics is of course a good thing as well but when you're already at 70+% CDR, the diminishing return lowers the effect of that additional CDR by a lot, while on the other hand the effective CDR from that ring bypasses the DR.
Of course, i can only talk about my experience on a support monk but as far as that goes, i'd say putting a diamond in your helmet is a waste of another more useful stat, i.e. either xp or life.
What i can imagine to make sense in high grifts where you need a lot more toughness, is to use a rorg as a second ring in order to allow yourself to get another set bonus (i would probably go for 4p blackthorn's) and maybe exchange the crown for either a set piece or a helmet with another useful effect.
Besides that, i completely agree with you: If you're gearing for high grifts, you have to prioritize more important things over experience gain (though i'd go for a different strategy there than yours) and if you're only doing rather low speed grifts, you will most likely be able to fit in quite a bit of xp gear without noticably lessen your ability to perform your role.
When it comes to trusting Blizzard to make the right choices, i suppose it's hard to argue abut that. From my experience, they sometimes find an awesome solution that makes things just so much better than before and sometimes they really screw up badly.
Personally, i prefer to expect the best and if i'm wrong, at least my mood doesn't get ruined by the actual outcome before it's really there.
Ugh, why do I not trust Blizzard to make adequate changes to support builds? I feel like they're just going to crush support altogether, making such builds useless. In any rpg I've played with others, I've found the role of support far more gratifying. In WoW I always gravitated towards tanking, and to a lesser extent healing. Sure, being able to effectively deal damage while avoiding damage can be fun, but for me, being able to protect your party and buff your party has always felt far more useful. And blizz has the terrible habit of being unable to find balance. It's either all or nothing for them. so RIP support builds soon, guess its back to DHmasterrace.
With a short research, i've only found a blue post about them not liking perma-stun. It seems, their plan is to get rid of that in order to force supports to focus more on their defenses. Doesn't sound too bad to me, actually... I think that with a change like that, supports will only become more important, even if they lose the ability to gear primary towards max experience gain.
It's clearly not the problem that there are exp builds.. they are NOT effective at running rifts for time or anything but exp. IMHO No one should be running an exp build in a public game ever, you are handicapping your team to benefit yourself. If your guild wants high PG and they understand the limiting factors of doing then good for them let them do it.. BUT if it were me, I would hugely decrease the benefit from exp items. I play all the time and I could care less if exp were in the game at all. I like PG but the fact that people compete on the same leaderboards against people who are 1500 pg when they are ~800 (which legitimately is all anyone should ever need or have played to) .. thats a 700 x 5 = 3500 Damage stat bonus which is an individual multiplier and the high average of 800 for dam stat would mean a ~35% damage bonus for having mindless grind time completely independent of gear or skill.
It is also a problem that ALL PG points (every single Level not every 4th) goes into your main stats after your 800..
If someone is skilled but has to work (and mind you I dont work I have time to play always) .. but say someone who has a job but still plays often (at least a few hours everyday) if they have the same quality of gear as someone like me who can play 16 hours +, but better skill, they should be on the top of the leaderboard.
This game used to be about gear, hours of exp grind for an insignificant stat bonus x enough times to make it significant sounds more like an MMORPG game than Diablo. Sht Bring back trade and RM if this is the way its gonna be
This is the essence of ROS end game, something you will all need to accept.
We likely will not see a change until the next expansion, which will lead to many different systems, and likely a change in end game, but to expect this in ROS is like expecting D3 to majestically transform into D4 over night, be real people.
Whether it is leeching or w.e the method, idc, you have classes that sprint to the end and one shot everything in T6 runs, so 3 leechers are hardly going to harm anything, in fact the more people that reach higher than 800 para, the more people to experiment in ways to crack GR levels and advance. Not ideal to me, but I try to find a pro in everything.
The answer, oh so simple, is to cap paragon at 800.
There will be much whining and gnashing of teeth, but it will make the competition truly competitive. People won't be motivated to do massive XP farming, at least not past that point, which is not hard to achieve.
And when the smoke clears, we can see who is on the leaderboards for sheer skill, and who has been leveraging a massive paragon point advantage.
***** OR *****
(AND I LIKE THIS EVEN MORE)
Scale the monsters to the paragon level. Tada!
-----------------
Because the real problem isn't leeching XP, that's a symptom of the problem. The problem is that paragon points give you an advantage that is not evened out in the game. There is nothing that counteracts your higher paragon points when you step into a grift. Which makes incentive to get as many as possible, to overpower the monsters. Given enough Mainstat & Vitality there is nothing you can't do, if it's not taken into consideration.
So let's end it. Cap paragon points, or scale the greater rifts accordingly. That's my .02, and I've sent it on up the foodchain to blizzard as well.
Peace!
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Kind of amazed at how defensive people are getting about the xp gear and/or totally misunderstanding OPs point. He's just saying he feels compelled to play support, which is good, so he can wear xp gear, and that even on support if there was no xp gear, he could do more damage / provide more support to the team...but he feels compelled to wear the xp gear because it provides such a large boost to xp.
there's always something to complain about regarding D3 isn't it? If it isn't about players who got onto the leaderboards thru GR fishing, it's about why another set legendary from another class is more OP, or it's about players chasing paragon levels..... it never ends.
Just play the game the way you want to play it and enjoy yourself. Yes, the game does frustrate us at times. God knows I've thrown countless mice out my window in a fit of anger; but that's why we love and hate this friggin game. It torments us and like gluttons we come back for more punishment.
If your play style is more aggressive then play it the way you like it - go full DPS
If your goal is to chase paragon levels and want to reach P10000000, then go for it
If you love climbing the leaderboards, then focus on your own craft and hone your play skills
There is something for everyone, not ONE for everyone.
All the hate for zdps and leech gear now wtf just think how much worse it will be when the classes that currently play zdps cant find groups if their changes go through they are talking about
I don't see a problem with supports using XP gear, as long as it doesn't limit their capability to do their job.
For example, while i am using allmost full xp gear on my zdps monk, i realized that using Leorics Signet instead of that Zodiac ring (the one that reduces cooldowns whenever you spend resources) lets me use my skills a lot less frequently. If i insisted on using Leorics anyways, it would decrease my performance and at that point, i would really start to consider myself a leecher instead of a dedicated support who happens to have the benefit of being able to wear xp gear.
However, i do see the problem for people who just don't want to play a support and therefore have a much harder time getting their paragon level up.
Personally, i don't mind having to play a support when i want to level more effectively because i find it to be just as much fun as being a dps. If someone just doesn't like the support role though, i don't think that he should be punished for that by leveling much slower...
If there was no xp gear, i wouldn't really mind: When playing my dps, i wouldn't have to feel like im losing out on experience gains and when playing my support, i might feel less limited when it comes to effective gear setups (though of course i can also just ignore the xp and focus on other stuff right now) and would find a grp much easier (not that im really having problems now) since there would most likely be much less supports than now.
On the other hand, people who only play dps might find that they have a much harder time finding a good support for their grp and realize that not having a "leecher" slows their leveling down even more than just not wearing xp gear themselves...
tl;dr:
I like playing dps and i also like playing support. The fact that i can use "leech" gear while supporting my grp, is pretty nice. If there wasn't any xp gear, i'd still be happy to play a support char from time to time. It wouldn't make that much of a difference to me...
However, those of you who only want to play dps and cry about the unfairness of "leech gear", might not be too happy if that was actually changed and many current "leechers" would give up on the support role. Then, to build an effective grp, you would have to put up with all that arrogance you are showing right now from the other side...
PS: In my own experience ingame, i have never met any dps who considered me a leecher or anything like that when i played support. Even with the xp gear motivating people to play zdps, it's still much easier to find a decent grp as a support than as a dps.
Blues have already covered this topic. It's gonna change.
In the meantime, just make the support/leech bring the keys, and have the dps recycle. Less work for them, in exchange for the support getting higher exp.
You got a quote for that?
Ugh, why do I not trust Blizzard to make adequate changes to support builds? I feel like they're just going to crush support altogether, making such builds useless. In any rpg I've played with others, I've found the role of support far more gratifying. In WoW I always gravitated towards tanking, and to a lesser extent healing. Sure, being able to effectively deal damage while avoiding damage can be fun, but for me, being able to protect your party and buff your party has always felt far more useful. And blizz has the terrible habit of being unable to find balance. It's either all or nothing for them. so RIP support builds soon, guess its back to DHmasterrace.
With a short research, i've only found a blue post about them not liking perma-stun. It seems, their plan is to get rid of that in order to force supports to focus more on their defenses. Doesn't sound too bad to me, actually... I think that with a change like that, supports will only become more important, even if they lose the ability to gear primary towards max experience gain.
(-> Link)
True support builds don't go ham on experience gear. Zsader for example. Yeah, you get some bonus exp from Borne's. But that should be the end of it. You should be stacking defensive stats, immunity neck, and cdr. One of the prime examples of stacking bonus exp is putting a ruby in a Leoric's Crown. Well, that's a HUGE chunk of CDR. On my zsader I have only 3 or so seconds of downtime on AC:P at ~73% cdr. Remove the diamond from my helm and the downtime is shit. You also lose perma-law, if you use condemn it feels clunky, your blind is less reliable, etc. Yeah you can use In-Geom to negate this in lesser rifts being run for speed, but that that point who cares? The support is still doing their job, and its only actually efficient for them to use exp gear if the group they're with is quite good, and perma blinds, perma fears, they're all secondary to buffing the group's damage and speed and efficiently grouping mobs. I dunno, as for how blizz might change it, I simply feel like things tend to be either black or white for them and they haven't seem to like support builds in this game anyway, so I feel like they're going to, instead of working to create an interesting and enjoyable support playstyle for some/all of the classes, they're simply going to destroy a playstyle which is actually quite enjoyable for a lot of people. Pure speculation and lack of trust in Blizz on my part tho, I'll admit that.
I'm not a big fan of In-Geom as imo there are way better choices for your weapon(s) but in my experience, running an Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac is very helpful in terms of CDR. Reducing an active Cooldown by 1sec every time you spend resources might not sound that much at first but if you already have a decent amount of CDR, it makes a huge difference on that relatively small downtime that is still left. Adding another 25% CDR from a perfect Leorics is of course a good thing as well but when you're already at 70+% CDR, the diminishing return lowers the effect of that additional CDR by a lot, while on the other hand the effective CDR from that ring bypasses the DR.
Of course, i can only talk about my experience on a support monk but as far as that goes, i'd say putting a diamond in your helmet is a waste of another more useful stat, i.e. either xp or life.
What i can imagine to make sense in high grifts where you need a lot more toughness, is to use a rorg as a second ring in order to allow yourself to get another set bonus (i would probably go for 4p blackthorn's) and maybe exchange the crown for either a set piece or a helmet with another useful effect.
Besides that, i completely agree with you: If you're gearing for high grifts, you have to prioritize more important things over experience gain (though i'd go for a different strategy there than yours) and if you're only doing rather low speed grifts, you will most likely be able to fit in quite a bit of xp gear without noticably lessen your ability to perform your role.
When it comes to trusting Blizzard to make the right choices, i suppose it's hard to argue abut that. From my experience, they sometimes find an awesome solution that makes things just so much better than before and sometimes they really screw up badly.
Personally, i prefer to expect the best and if i'm wrong, at least my mood doesn't get ruined by the actual outcome before it's really there.
thats only true for high grifts, people will keep using 220% xp builds for speed runs .
You guys might have a point there...
It's clearly not the problem that there are exp builds.. they are NOT effective at running rifts for time or anything but exp. IMHO No one should be running an exp build in a public game ever, you are handicapping your team to benefit yourself. If your guild wants high PG and they understand the limiting factors of doing then good for them let them do it.. BUT if it were me, I would hugely decrease the benefit from exp items. I play all the time and I could care less if exp were in the game at all. I like PG but the fact that people compete on the same leaderboards against people who are 1500 pg when they are ~800 (which legitimately is all anyone should ever need or have played to) .. thats a 700 x 5 = 3500 Damage stat bonus which is an individual multiplier and the high average of 800 for dam stat would mean a ~35% damage bonus for having mindless grind time completely independent of gear or skill.
It is also a problem that ALL PG points (every single Level not every 4th) goes into your main stats after your 800..
If someone is skilled but has to work (and mind you I dont work I have time to play always) .. but say someone who has a job but still plays often (at least a few hours everyday) if they have the same quality of gear as someone like me who can play 16 hours +, but better skill, they should be on the top of the leaderboard.
This game used to be about gear, hours of exp grind for an insignificant stat bonus x enough times to make it significant sounds more like an MMORPG game than Diablo. Sht Bring back trade and RM if this is the way its gonna be
This is the essence of ROS end game, something you will all need to accept.
We likely will not see a change until the next expansion, which will lead to many different systems, and likely a change in end game, but to expect this in ROS is like expecting D3 to majestically transform into D4 over night, be real people.
Whether it is leeching or w.e the method, idc, you have classes that sprint to the end and one shot everything in T6 runs, so 3 leechers are hardly going to harm anything, in fact the more people that reach higher than 800 para, the more people to experiment in ways to crack GR levels and advance. Not ideal to me, but I try to find a pro in everything.
The answer, oh so simple, is to cap paragon at 800.
There will be much whining and gnashing of teeth, but it will make the competition truly competitive. People won't be motivated to do massive XP farming, at least not past that point, which is not hard to achieve.
And when the smoke clears, we can see who is on the leaderboards for sheer skill, and who has been leveraging a massive paragon point advantage.
***** OR *****
(AND I LIKE THIS EVEN MORE)
Scale the monsters to the paragon level. Tada!
-----------------
Because the real problem isn't leeching XP, that's a symptom of the problem. The problem is that paragon points give you an advantage that is not evened out in the game. There is nothing that counteracts your higher paragon points when you step into a grift. Which makes incentive to get as many as possible, to overpower the monsters. Given enough Mainstat & Vitality there is nothing you can't do, if it's not taken into consideration.
So let's end it. Cap paragon points, or scale the greater rifts accordingly. That's my .02, and I've sent it on up the foodchain to blizzard as well.
Peace!