I apologize if it has already been addressed, i tried searching but didn't notice a previous post mentioning it, and i apologize if you type in the correct combination of words in search and find a previous post immediately, my bad.
BUT...why cant crit chance/dmg be rolled into main stat and be capped at a certain number? i think it's completely silly that crit chance/dmg takes precedent over main stat. as in for example something i noticed on an item the other day, an intelligence ring with good crit chance/dmg rolls gives me a "huge"(at least 5% in this case) dps increase over a pretty good STR roll(while on a STR toon) and i assume the same would be done for a DEX toon, with no crit rolls or bad crit rolls. it's like the main stat has little to no bearing whatsoever to an item. where(at least i think so) main stat should be where you get the lions share of your damage from. i just dont think that we should have a separate crit stat that supersedes main stat as far as damage goes. at the very least make main stat the priority and everything else a helpful secondary. i've been seeing more and more(granted these are odd outliers) people mixing gear on toons, for example a WD with a hodge podge of STR, DEX, and INT gear stacking secondaries and doing REALLY WELL in a GR40, i feel like if you deviate from main stat you should be punished with lower damage/survivability not rewarded because you found what feels like an exploit in the system but is intended apparently.
the crit chance/dmg is rolled to your current STR not the STR on the item, hence why the tooltip shows an item (for example a ring with int and a good crit chance/dmg roll) as a DPS increase and say it had better vit and armor it would show an all around green improvement to whatever STR ring i had in the slot at the time. now true using that item i would see a minor drop in +1 STR= +1% dmg and +1% armor but base crit chance and dmg is like +150% dmg. so in this case using an int ring with a good crit roll is a dps improvement, and my opinion is that it shouldnt be. i did use one example of some idiot mixing items(which i thought was ridiculous) but the main point is that i dont think that crit chance and dmg should ever be able to do more damage by itself than an item with main stat is all.
the crit chance/dmg is rolled to your current STR not the STR on the item, hence why the tooltip shows an item (for example a ring with int and a good crit chance/dmg roll) as a DPS increase and say it had better vit and armor it would show an all around green improvement to whatever STR ring i had in the slot at the time. now true using that item i would see a minor drop in +1 STR= +1% dmg and +1% armor but base crit chance and dmg is like +150% dmg. so in this case using an int ring with a good crit roll is a dps improvement, and my opinion is that it shouldnt be. i did use one example of some idiot mixing items(which i thought was ridiculous) but the main point is that i dont think that crit chance and dmg should ever be able to do more damage by itself than an item with main stat is all.
Let me try to clarify a little more for you.
With more CC and CD, you will see more damage on crits, however, if you replace your main stat with CC or CD, you will see a lower damage number, but, you will crit more often or hit harder with your crits, so the game is estimating that you actually proc your crits such as your % suggests. Rule of thumb for every item is Primary>CC=CD>CDR(AS if CDR not needed). This is not exact, but it is a base rule of thumb.
In some instances, if you are running low on CC or CD in other slots such as your gloves (Gotta love RNG) that is when people often drop their primary stat on a ring for the CC or CD in order to maintain a 1:10 ratio. This is typically negated now with paragon levels which allow a much easier path to create that 1:10 ratio. For a target, most people aim for 40% CC and 400% CD, but most usually end up around 38%/380%.
It isn't broken. Main stats are an infinite resource using Paragon. CHD/CHC can only be raised by itemization. So in the case of jewelry it is absolutely correct to roll off main stats for crit. As sockets are for the most part mandatory something has to be rolled off. So the wise thing to roll off is the stat that is most easily replaced and has the least benefit.
Just to give you an example. Let's look at amulets. 10%CHC/100%CHD will give you at least a 10% overall damage increase. If you take even the Ancient number of 1000,it has at most a 10% damage increase. The main main stat scenario is a naked character wearing only the amulet and Paragon all reset.
Your decisions to roll new stats onto items should be based on the potential benefit. The presented logic of the OP suggests that things should be a certain way. This is broken logic. Things are a certain way, just not the way the OP would prefer.
gotcha, thank you cray and demon for helping me understand the flaw in my logic better.
Worth being noted though, I sort of like the idea of having CC and CD tied to your main stat, opening items up for things such as resource reduction and other rolls. Have no idea how balanced that would be though, think it could possibly make the game a bit trivial. I also know they have been debating having CC and CD tied to level and having a max of 35%/350% when you hit lvl 70. I would be perfectly fine with this as well as it means you are more likely to have an effective ring or ammy rather then requiring it has main stat, CC, CD, and a socket to be BIS or near BIS.
@OP, the WD with STR/DEX you are talking about, are you sure it isn't a support WD? They are used in groups to perma stun items, generate health globes (reaper wraps -> resource for DH), and boost party damage. They besically have no damage, and try to get as much toughness as possible. They need crit chance and attackspeed to proc the healthglobes.
The way stats are (int converts to all res, dex/str to armor) and how high they roll, support WD end up with DEX/STR+all res+vit+life%, and attackspeed/critchance where possible.
No dps class will go with a non-mainstat primary on their items.
Since crit chance and crit damage are limited, and the ideal setup would be 100mainstat/10crit damage/1crit chance (if you calculate pure sheet dps, attackspeed and elemental damage being seperate multipliers), people drop mainstat for the crit rolls, as they are getting 10k+ mainstat easy but 500cd/50cd being close to the limit.
pretty much the main point i was trying to make was, in my opinion crit dmg/chance itself should never be a dps increase over main stat in any situation. it is a secondary stat and should be a helpful boost but not replacement obviously you cant use ALL CHD/CHC gear as you need to have a strong baseline of mainstat for CHD to be worthwhile. i personally think main stat needs to be boosted a bit or the value of crit brought down a bit. it's silly that 200 of mainstat barely makes a 1% increase in dps and i like the idea of rolling CHC/CHD into main stat and capping CHC/CHD maybe even capping main stat. with DEX toons having a higher CHC and STR toons having a higher CHD ceiling. i'm not sure what would make the most sense with INT toons maybe CHD/CHC being closer together like
for example assuming main stat is at max(and im just randomly picking numbers here so dont jump on my shit for not doing REAL maths on the subject just follow me on a theoretical discussion)
DEX CHC 20% max CHD 150% max
STR CHC 15%max CHD 200% max
INT CHC 0% but a higher baseline DMG or better resource regen maybe?
honestly i hadnt put too much thought into INT, maybe crit doesnt have to have an effect for them at all and they just have a completely different secondary rolled into their mainstat that offers better assistance.
but i digress these would all be major overhauls of systems and i should just stop my ::rabble rabble rabble:: over things that arent likely to ever change
You don' understand ratios very well. All dps stats are, after you have some of all of them, equal. Here is why:
at 6000 Strength an increase of 300 strength is something like a 5% increase.
At 10% crit a 0.5% crit chance increase is the same 5% damage boost.
This math works because each primary stat is 1% more damage. 1% crit is 1% more damage. However, dex bonuses add to dex bonuses, crit bonuses add to crit, so you total of each is multiplied by the other one and multiplied against your damage rolls.
Critical hit damage is slightly more difficult to calculate because it's value is totally dependent upon crit chance.
Another thing you will notice, if you are astute enough, is that especially in group play and for certain classes you get skill modifiers to crit chance. These tend to be over the cap of 75% chance to crit. So when you want to be the best you roll off your crit chance for... crit damage and primary stat. These buffs you get make the relative value of crit chance very much less. Again, though, with good gear and maximizing resource cost reduction I sit at like 43% crit and 450% ish critical hit damage with a 2h weapon. With the new set I might go dual wield for even more crit damage, but will have to test.
Reading through this response you can see how primary stat "is" the most important stat. Thats why you sit at 10000% increased damage from primary stat and not crit. This 10000% increased damage also multiplies out your crit. So your crit benefits from dex; hence the ratio argument.
This is also how a much lower dps 2 hand weapon can produce much higher, as much as 30% more dps with a 1.1 attack speed 2h bow at 2900 dps vs a 1.4 attack speed 2h bow at 3300 dps. The slower bow has higher damage numbers so multiplies out higher. Because you only have so much primary resource at any 1 time and over time you are better off hitting harder when you spend it than worrying about a dps number that assumes infinite primary resource.
All the dps stat increases are relative to the total of any given stat.
Your solution of always keeping the main stat the highest in priority can only be accomplished with a non-linear damage increase on primary stats. This would be interesting to see, but would just give too much more increased power to people with very high paragon. This would further skew the leader boards and make it where I couldn't not be on them in seasonal characters.
If you spend some time to apply 3rd grade math you can figure all of this out yourself.
ignoring your asshole last point which doesn't have a basis in reality(due to the math being much higher than 3rd grade, you know it really is ok to have a discussion without being a dick) but diverting a bit with your 2nd to last point, with seasonal characters everyone starts from scratch, so if you put the time and effort into it(like the people at the top of the leader board DO) why wouldn't it be fair that higher paragon levels have an advantage(they do have an advantage)? as it stands it really depends on RNG as the ruling factor to decide if you're on the leader boards or not. sure some skill is involved but if you dont get 2 unity drops you can pretty much forget about even considering a solo leader board. never mind the correct mob density, pylons, getting one shot by a random white mob with no affix, weapon drops, set drops that you have to HOPE drops/kadala gives regardless of time/blood shards invested.
i acknowledged my mistake early then tried to have a discussion on an interesting idea that would never get implemented. i GET IT as people explained it earlier in the post already. CrayZ1430 already correctly pointed out "The presented logic of the OP suggests that things should be a certain way. This is broken logic. Things are a certain way, just not the way the OP would prefer."
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I apologize if it has already been addressed, i tried searching but didn't notice a previous post mentioning it, and i apologize if you type in the correct combination of words in search and find a previous post immediately, my bad.
BUT...why cant crit chance/dmg be rolled into main stat and be capped at a certain number? i think it's completely silly that crit chance/dmg takes precedent over main stat. as in for example something i noticed on an item the other day, an intelligence ring with good crit chance/dmg rolls gives me a "huge"(at least 5% in this case) dps increase over a pretty good STR roll(while on a STR toon) and i assume the same would be done for a DEX toon, with no crit rolls or bad crit rolls. it's like the main stat has little to no bearing whatsoever to an item. where(at least i think so) main stat should be where you get the lions share of your damage from. i just dont think that we should have a separate crit stat that supersedes main stat as far as damage goes. at the very least make main stat the priority and everything else a helpful secondary. i've been seeing more and more(granted these are odd outliers) people mixing gear on toons, for example a WD with a hodge podge of STR, DEX, and INT gear stacking secondaries and doing REALLY WELL in a GR40, i feel like if you deviate from main stat you should be punished with lower damage/survivability not rewarded because you found what feels like an exploit in the system but is intended apparently.
the crit chance/dmg is rolled to your current STR not the STR on the item, hence why the tooltip shows an item (for example a ring with int and a good crit chance/dmg roll) as a DPS increase and say it had better vit and armor it would show an all around green improvement to whatever STR ring i had in the slot at the time. now true using that item i would see a minor drop in +1 STR= +1% dmg and +1% armor but base crit chance and dmg is like +150% dmg. so in this case using an int ring with a good crit roll is a dps improvement, and my opinion is that it shouldnt be. i did use one example of some idiot mixing items(which i thought was ridiculous) but the main point is that i dont think that crit chance and dmg should ever be able to do more damage by itself than an item with main stat is all.
Let me try to clarify a little more for you.
With more CC and CD, you will see more damage on crits, however, if you replace your main stat with CC or CD, you will see a lower damage number, but, you will crit more often or hit harder with your crits, so the game is estimating that you actually proc your crits such as your % suggests. Rule of thumb for every item is Primary>CC=CD>CDR(AS if CDR not needed). This is not exact, but it is a base rule of thumb.
In some instances, if you are running low on CC or CD in other slots such as your gloves (Gotta love RNG) that is when people often drop their primary stat on a ring for the CC or CD in order to maintain a 1:10 ratio. This is typically negated now with paragon levels which allow a much easier path to create that 1:10 ratio. For a target, most people aim for 40% CC and 400% CD, but most usually end up around 38%/380%.
It isn't broken. Main stats are an infinite resource using Paragon. CHD/CHC can only be raised by itemization. So in the case of jewelry it is absolutely correct to roll off main stats for crit. As sockets are for the most part mandatory something has to be rolled off. So the wise thing to roll off is the stat that is most easily replaced and has the least benefit.
Just to give you an example. Let's look at amulets. 10%CHC/100%CHD will give you at least a 10% overall damage increase. If you take even the Ancient number of 1000,it has at most a 10% damage increase. The main main stat scenario is a naked character wearing only the amulet and Paragon all reset.
Your decisions to roll new stats onto items should be based on the potential benefit. The presented logic of the OP suggests that things should be a certain way. This is broken logic. Things are a certain way, just not the way the OP would prefer.
gotcha, thank you cray and demon for helping me understand the flaw in my logic better.
Worth being noted though, I sort of like the idea of having CC and CD tied to your main stat, opening items up for things such as resource reduction and other rolls. Have no idea how balanced that would be though, think it could possibly make the game a bit trivial. I also know they have been debating having CC and CD tied to level and having a max of 35%/350% when you hit lvl 70. I would be perfectly fine with this as well as it means you are more likely to have an effective ring or ammy rather then requiring it has main stat, CC, CD, and a socket to be BIS or near BIS.
Did that Broken Promises ring make it into 2.2 or did they decide it's too strong?
@OP, the WD with STR/DEX you are talking about, are you sure it isn't a support WD? They are used in groups to perma stun items, generate health globes (reaper wraps -> resource for DH), and boost party damage. They besically have no damage, and try to get as much toughness as possible. They need crit chance and attackspeed to proc the healthglobes.
The way stats are (int converts to all res, dex/str to armor) and how high they roll, support WD end up with DEX/STR+all res+vit+life%, and attackspeed/critchance where possible.
No dps class will go with a non-mainstat primary on their items.
Since crit chance and crit damage are limited, and the ideal setup would be 100mainstat/10crit damage/1crit chance (if you calculate pure sheet dps, attackspeed and elemental damage being seperate multipliers), people drop mainstat for the crit rolls, as they are getting 10k+ mainstat easy but 500cd/50cd being close to the limit.
pretty much the main point i was trying to make was, in my opinion crit dmg/chance itself should never be a dps increase over main stat in any situation. it is a secondary stat and should be a helpful boost but not replacement obviously you cant use ALL CHD/CHC gear as you need to have a strong baseline of mainstat for CHD to be worthwhile. i personally think main stat needs to be boosted a bit or the value of crit brought down a bit. it's silly that 200 of mainstat barely makes a 1% increase in dps and i like the idea of rolling CHC/CHD into main stat and capping CHC/CHD maybe even capping main stat. with DEX toons having a higher CHC and STR toons having a higher CHD ceiling. i'm not sure what would make the most sense with INT toons maybe CHD/CHC being closer together like
for example assuming main stat is at max(and im just randomly picking numbers here so dont jump on my shit for not doing REAL maths on the subject just follow me on a theoretical discussion)
DEX CHC 20% max CHD 150% max
STR CHC 15%max CHD 200% max
INT CHC 0% but a higher baseline DMG or better resource regen maybe?
honestly i hadnt put too much thought into INT, maybe crit doesnt have to have an effect for them at all and they just have a completely different secondary rolled into their mainstat that offers better assistance.
but i digress these would all be major overhauls of systems and i should just stop my ::rabble rabble rabble:: over things that arent likely to ever change
You don' understand ratios very well. All dps stats are, after you have some of all of them, equal. Here is why:
at 6000 Strength an increase of 300 strength is something like a 5% increase.
At 10% crit a 0.5% crit chance increase is the same 5% damage boost.
This math works because each primary stat is 1% more damage. 1% crit is 1% more damage. However, dex bonuses add to dex bonuses, crit bonuses add to crit, so you total of each is multiplied by the other one and multiplied against your damage rolls.
Critical hit damage is slightly more difficult to calculate because it's value is totally dependent upon crit chance.
Another thing you will notice, if you are astute enough, is that especially in group play and for certain classes you get skill modifiers to crit chance. These tend to be over the cap of 75% chance to crit. So when you want to be the best you roll off your crit chance for... crit damage and primary stat. These buffs you get make the relative value of crit chance very much less. Again, though, with good gear and maximizing resource cost reduction I sit at like 43% crit and 450% ish critical hit damage with a 2h weapon. With the new set I might go dual wield for even more crit damage, but will have to test.
Reading through this response you can see how primary stat "is" the most important stat. Thats why you sit at 10000% increased damage from primary stat and not crit. This 10000% increased damage also multiplies out your crit. So your crit benefits from dex; hence the ratio argument.
This is also how a much lower dps 2 hand weapon can produce much higher, as much as 30% more dps with a 1.1 attack speed 2h bow at 2900 dps vs a 1.4 attack speed 2h bow at 3300 dps. The slower bow has higher damage numbers so multiplies out higher. Because you only have so much primary resource at any 1 time and over time you are better off hitting harder when you spend it than worrying about a dps number that assumes infinite primary resource.
All the dps stat increases are relative to the total of any given stat.
Your solution of always keeping the main stat the highest in priority can only be accomplished with a non-linear damage increase on primary stats. This would be interesting to see, but would just give too much more increased power to people with very high paragon. This would further skew the leader boards and make it where I couldn't not be on them in seasonal characters.
If you spend some time to apply 3rd grade math you can figure all of this out yourself.
ignoring your asshole last point which doesn't have a basis in reality(due to the math being much higher than 3rd grade, you know it really is ok to have a discussion without being a dick) but diverting a bit with your 2nd to last point, with seasonal characters everyone starts from scratch, so if you put the time and effort into it(like the people at the top of the leader board DO) why wouldn't it be fair that higher paragon levels have an advantage(they do have an advantage)? as it stands it really depends on RNG as the ruling factor to decide if you're on the leader boards or not. sure some skill is involved but if you dont get 2 unity drops you can pretty much forget about even considering a solo leader board. never mind the correct mob density, pylons, getting one shot by a random white mob with no affix, weapon drops, set drops that you have to HOPE drops/kadala gives regardless of time/blood shards invested.
i acknowledged my mistake early then tried to have a discussion on an interesting idea that would never get implemented. i GET IT as people explained it earlier in the post already. CrayZ1430 already correctly pointed out "The presented logic of the OP suggests that things should be a certain way. This is broken logic. Things are a certain way, just not the way the OP would prefer."