It’s interesting that you mention permanent Serenity uptime.
The concept of permanent immunity has actually been on our radar since we introduced Cooldown Reduction in Reaper of Souls. Since then, we’ve seen many players who have been able to skirt the edges of permanent immunity using this affix. Frankly, we think that’s awesome, since we love it that players can customize their characters in different ways.
While it’s our goal for CDR to be a desirable affix, and while we’re okay with players greatly reducing the cooldown of their immunity skills, we also want to avoid a scenario where permanent immunity is possible. For instance, in patch 2.1.2, we put a cooldown on Smoke Screen to mitigate permanent immunity builds for the Demon Hunter so that you couldn’t chain this skill back-to-back.
Starting in the next PTR patch, we’ll be applying this philosophy to the following immunity skills.
Spirit Walk Serenity Smoke Screen Laws of Hope – Stop Time
With this, the cooldowns on these skills will begin after their buff ends. To minimize negatively impacting the normal use case for these skills, we’re lowering the cooldown time to compensate – for example, Serenity is going from a 20 second cooldown that starts on activation, to a 16 second cooldown that starts when Serenity ends.
Previously, we may have decided against adding an item power to the game that might lead to permanent invulnerability. However, with these new changes, we’ll have much more freedom in designing new and powerful items, since there will be a stop gap to ensure that permanent invincibility is no longer a concern.
We wanted to let you all know about the above changes in advance, so that you’ll be prepared for them in the next PTR patch. I'll be eager to hear everyone's thoughts once these changes actually go into effect.
If for one welcome this change. Even though I love the zDPS WD, I wouldn't mind if they "nerf" Tiklandian Visage as well... though players might just end up outranging affixes, such as displayed by wudijo in his DH GR50+ videos, and still go for glass canon builds. But all those perma-immunities and perma-stuns are somewhat cheesy game mechanics and we use them because it's kinda required to clear GR60+, or at least makes it orders of magnitude easier... but it doesn't make it more exciting to never see the affixes in action. Would be nice if there were more affixes that can be avoided by playing well (i.e., if you could actually escape Frozen or Poison, similar to how you dodge Frozen Orb, and it wouldn't cover the entire screen).
Immunity is the only way to not die in higher grifts if only you get hit by basically anything. I'm all for changing affixes in a such a way that it'd be possible to dodge them (a jailer missile, frozen dealing very little damage at start but increasing expotentially, no first tick for thunderstorm etc), the way they want to do it now is not that bad but the problem is that if immunity skills don't go off cooldown when active, WD is going to be even worse than he is. Spirit Walk is very important in Jade build and I can't see how they are supposed to work after this change.
If they remove the WD disable from the game then high GR's will turn into one big cluster fuck. People will flip rifts 10 times more than what they are doing now.
They have to either reduce the ammount of affixes on elite packs or make elites attack slow, place fewer affixes on the ground, cast fewer and slower abilities... All this to make the incoming damage avoidable.
As long as there is 100% unavoidable damage in the game, people will outrange, zerg and go full glass cannon because if you get a good rift without elites as a solo dh, you will clear it in no time and possibly be ahead on the leaderboards because presumably everyone else will be trying to strike a balance between dps and toughness which obviously lowers their dps drastically.
Maybe items like the broken promises in 2.2 can help with the itemization because you will be able to skip crit chance on gear for an example. We have to wait and see i guess.
In general this change seems ok. The only really big nerf here is to monks i guess. The change might also mean that you won't have perma spirirt walk with a channeling pylon on, but that's not a big nerf compared to the monk tbh.
I would like to see more affixes that are actually dodge-able. Good that they remove the perma-immunity. About the Tiklandian Visage: Either nerf it or give something similar to a Wizzard or a Barb, so a zDPS WD isn't mandatory to clear 50+ gRifts
LOL, WD's do low damage as is (compared to all other classes), Tiki is the only reason they are in GR's as support Chars, if you take even that away from them, well...
What about Laws of Hope? They already nerfed it once, in a way that Long Arm of the Law was not affecting the duration (it was 3s if you have or don't have Long arm passive). Even with Long arm passive and LAws of hope being 8s at that time you had to have over 70% CDr (doable only with a one hander), or a group running the same passive.
I agree that if, but only if the Broken Promises and Obsidian Ring come to live as on PTR you can equip yourself with a lot of defensive gear and "hunting" for CHD only, but it will not work on all classes.
Wizzard will have slow time set, greatly CC-ing stuff, Raekor barb already can "freeze" all enemies around him.
In short, I would prefer buffs to other classes, not nerfs to some of skills on some of the classes.
Actually for high GRifting Serenity and the build around it is dead if they implement that change.
Additionally, only ranged skills/classes will profit from all of that, melee classes that have to be in the midst of it just get punished more and more.
i'm on the fence on this one simply because to even gain near immortality, one has to give up a lot as well (mostly for wds).
and besides, noone would reach 70 right now anyway because of the limitations of our damage.
or maybe they'll be tweaking GRs yet again in the future...so they're doing this as early as possible.
I would like to see more affixes that are actually dodge-able. Good that they remove the perma-immunity. About the Tiklandian Visage: Either nerf it or give something similar to a Wizzard or a Barb, so a zDPS WD isn't mandatory to clear 50+ gRifts
wizards already had something, it was called the CM perma freeze build, that blizzard removed from the game because they were "unhappy that wizards could make boss encounters/high level gameplay too easy for a group", yet they seem perfectly happy to let any tom dick and harry do the self same sodding thing, it exacerbate me to no end the amount of bullshit coming out the D3 dev team at times.
While I fully support this change I think they need to do it together with some change to difficulty scaling in GRs. In any case we'll probably see a few iterations of the change in PTR before its release to live.
Perma-immunity is just a bad game mechanic, period. It needs to be dealt with.
Part of the issue is the timer putting pressure on people to hurry. It's not like it was way back in vanilla, when people would pull enemies away from each other and strategically kite, isolate and pick at their targets.
Nobody does this anymore due to time constraints, all we see are people jumping in head first and hoping for the best. I'm not advocating removing the timer, but that aspect has led to a cautious-less approach to Diablo combat. I feel the true solution is for them to develop numerous, innovative mitigation gears. The new Legendary gem is a good start, but we need way more of that kind of thinking. Perhaps even hybrid gears that give both a heavy defensive bonus, as well as adding something offensive, so that players aren't picking their gear in such a black and white (damage or defense) mentality.
The solution to this problem is GEAR, not game mechanics.
Welcomed change. Perma immunity should never be in the game. It's not a good game play mechanic.
I'm also surprised they still allow the tiki WD. It completely ruins the game play experience. I can't imagine blizzard thinking its ideal game play to have mobs just standing there, permenantly feared. It makes for boring, unengaging gameplay. Yes I realized it doesnt always go that smoothly and its required to the higher tiers but thats a small price to pay.
sad to say that perma serenity is possible only with zodiac ( previously we needed to DW + get CDR + gorgok on all our gear to perform a Zdps role... i feel that overall monks will suffer at times but using skills like ephi + santuary we can sort of take the hits ( perhaps use of other talents and mantras will be more viable now...
but sadly the inna set is crap... the raiments = 2pc good rest no use atm ... the SWK seems to be tweaked into getting 6 set pc but no bonuses are mentioned yet... knowing blizzard they might give up some but open options to others... ... overall you do have to admit the game is being redesigned overall ( DH's getting tanky (with the new set i mean 40% damage reduction? wow ) the barbs getting aoe ancients ? lol lol lol...
looks like we will have to see whats going to happen.. blizzard normally makes changes once the global population revolts!
Regarding Tiki (although I have even more damage without it) I wouldn't be able to clear GR40+ with my pet doc if they change it - coz I would be dead most of the time...
Also, if they redo it (like skill starts resetting after it stopped "working"), you hardly will see any group combination going higher than GR50.
Is it kinda cheezy, yes it is, but especially the pet doc and his pets are so squishy that you need need to squeeze out all the cheese you can.
I've said this a couple dozen times before, so I'm just gonna leave it here.... you know, in case someone still doesn't get it.... maybe, just maybe we weren't supposed to be reaching GR XX in the first place.
The community is obviously breaking the limits imposed by the item numbers (sheer base dps and stats) every time, and more often than not they're doing it through what can be called cheesy mechanics - infinite resources, immunity, perma crowd control.
It's awesome seeing new builds break through previous records, and it has been shown time and time again that is possible (and not everything is figured out), and party compositions trying to push the limits too - but resorting to these mechanics to even compete is something people probably don't even want to.
To be honest, I think this is the biggest reason why, whenever they reduce the effectiveness of anything or implement new content, there's a huge spike in player power (and more power creep - a TRILLION damage! is the latest trend). Revamped Legendaries, then revamped Sets, then Legendary Gems, then Ancient items - just so that people don't rage about not being able to reach GR XX anymore, without realizing that numbers wise they were never even supposed to (old school Rimeheart...)
I welcome the change, but I'd also really like for them to take a step back and stop with the ridiculous number inflation. It's pointless and not gonna head us anywhere interesting. Take the WoW approach to this before we're doing a GAZILLION damage and our monitors can't even show the numbers.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16412042152?page=2#22
Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
It’s interesting that you mention permanent Serenity uptime.
The concept of permanent immunity has actually been on our radar since we introduced Cooldown Reduction in Reaper of Souls. Since then, we’ve seen many players who have been able to skirt the edges of permanent immunity using this affix. Frankly, we think that’s awesome, since we love it that players can customize their characters in different ways.
While it’s our goal for CDR to be a desirable affix, and while we’re okay with players greatly reducing the cooldown of their immunity skills, we also want to avoid a scenario where permanent immunity is possible. For instance, in patch 2.1.2, we put a cooldown on Smoke Screen to mitigate permanent immunity builds for the Demon Hunter so that you couldn’t chain this skill back-to-back.
Starting in the next PTR patch, we’ll be applying this philosophy to the following immunity skills.
Spirit Walk Serenity Smoke Screen Laws of Hope – Stop Time
With this, the cooldowns on these skills will begin after their buff ends. To minimize negatively impacting the normal use case for these skills, we’re lowering the cooldown time to compensate – for example, Serenity is going from a 20 second cooldown that starts on activation, to a 16 second cooldown that starts when Serenity ends.
Previously, we may have decided against adding an item power to the game that might lead to permanent invulnerability. However, with these new changes, we’ll have much more freedom in designing new and powerful items, since there will be a stop gap to ensure that permanent invincibility is no longer a concern.
We wanted to let you all know about the above changes in advance, so that you’ll be prepared for them in the next PTR patch. I'll be eager to hear everyone's thoughts once these changes actually go into effect.
If for one welcome this change. Even though I love the zDPS WD, I wouldn't mind if they "nerf" Tiklandian Visage as well... though players might just end up outranging affixes, such as displayed by wudijo in his DH GR50+ videos, and still go for glass canon builds. But all those perma-immunities and perma-stuns are somewhat cheesy game mechanics and we use them because it's kinda required to clear GR60+, or at least makes it orders of magnitude easier... but it doesn't make it more exciting to never see the affixes in action. Would be nice if there were more affixes that can be avoided by playing well (i.e., if you could actually escape Frozen or Poison, similar to how you dodge Frozen Orb, and it wouldn't cover the entire screen).
What do you think?
Immunity is the only way to not die in higher grifts if only you get hit by basically anything. I'm all for changing affixes in a such a way that it'd be possible to dodge them (a jailer missile, frozen dealing very little damage at start but increasing expotentially, no first tick for thunderstorm etc), the way they want to do it now is not that bad but the problem is that if immunity skills don't go off cooldown when active, WD is going to be even worse than he is. Spirit Walk is very important in Jade build and I can't see how they are supposed to work after this change.
If they remove the WD disable from the game then high GR's will turn into one big cluster fuck. People will flip rifts 10 times more than what they are doing now.
They have to either reduce the ammount of affixes on elite packs or make elites attack slow, place fewer affixes on the ground, cast fewer and slower abilities... All this to make the incoming damage avoidable.
As long as there is 100% unavoidable damage in the game, people will outrange, zerg and go full glass cannon because if you get a good rift without elites as a solo dh, you will clear it in no time and possibly be ahead on the leaderboards because presumably everyone else will be trying to strike a balance between dps and toughness which obviously lowers their dps drastically.
Maybe items like the broken promises in 2.2 can help with the itemization because you will be able to skip crit chance on gear for an example. We have to wait and see i guess.
In general this change seems ok. The only really big nerf here is to monks i guess. The change might also mean that you won't have perma spirirt walk with a channeling pylon on, but that's not a big nerf compared to the monk tbh.
LOL, WD's do low damage as is (compared to all other classes), Tiki is the only reason they are in GR's as support Chars, if you take even that away from them, well...
What about Laws of Hope? They already nerfed it once, in a way that Long Arm of the Law was not affecting the duration (it was 3s if you have or don't have Long arm passive). Even with Long arm passive and LAws of hope being 8s at that time you had to have over 70% CDr (doable only with a one hander), or a group running the same passive.
I agree that if, but only if the Broken Promises and Obsidian Ring come to live as on PTR you can equip yourself with a lot of defensive gear and "hunting" for CHD only, but it will not work on all classes.
Wizzard will have slow time set, greatly CC-ing stuff, Raekor barb already can "freeze" all enemies around him.
In short, I would prefer buffs to other classes, not nerfs to some of skills on some of the classes.
Actually for high GRifting Serenity and the build around it is dead if they implement that change.
Additionally, only ranged skills/classes will profit from all of that, melee classes that have to be in the midst of it just get punished more and more.
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i'm on the fence on this one simply because to even gain near immortality, one has to give up a lot as well (mostly for wds).
and besides, noone would reach 70 right now anyway because of the limitations of our damage.
or maybe they'll be tweaking GRs yet again in the future...so they're doing this as early as possible.
wizards already had something, it was called the CM perma freeze build, that blizzard removed from the game because they were "unhappy that wizards could make boss encounters/high level gameplay too easy for a group", yet they seem perfectly happy to let any tom dick and harry do the self same sodding thing, it exacerbate me to no end the amount of bullshit coming out the D3 dev team at times.
Perma-immunity is just a bad game mechanic, period. It needs to be dealt with.
Part of the issue is the timer putting pressure on people to hurry. It's not like it was way back in vanilla, when people would pull enemies away from each other and strategically kite, isolate and pick at their targets.
Nobody does this anymore due to time constraints, all we see are people jumping in head first and hoping for the best. I'm not advocating removing the timer, but that aspect has led to a cautious-less approach to Diablo combat. I feel the true solution is for them to develop numerous, innovative mitigation gears. The new Legendary gem is a good start, but we need way more of that kind of thinking. Perhaps even hybrid gears that give both a heavy defensive bonus, as well as adding something offensive, so that players aren't picking their gear in such a black and white (damage or defense) mentality.
The solution to this problem is GEAR, not game mechanics.
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Welcomed change. Perma immunity should never be in the game. It's not a good game play mechanic.
I'm also surprised they still allow the tiki WD. It completely ruins the game play experience. I can't imagine blizzard thinking its ideal game play to have mobs just standing there, permenantly feared. It makes for boring, unengaging gameplay. Yes I realized it doesnt always go that smoothly and its required to the higher tiers but thats a small price to pay.
No, pls no immunities on bosses.
For that to work they would have to rework the game and sets totally.
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zodiac ring was broken, stacking CDR at the expense of everything else was not. RIP monks, will be playing 30/50/50 barb now.
sad to say that perma serenity is possible only with zodiac ( previously we needed to DW + get CDR + gorgok on all our gear to perform a Zdps role... i feel that overall monks will suffer at times but using skills like ephi + santuary we can sort of take the hits ( perhaps use of other talents and mantras will be more viable now...
but sadly the inna set is crap... the raiments = 2pc good rest no use atm ... the SWK seems to be tweaked into getting 6 set pc but no bonuses are mentioned yet... knowing blizzard they might give up some but open options to others... ... overall you do have to admit the game is being redesigned overall ( DH's getting tanky (with the new set i mean 40% damage reduction? wow ) the barbs getting aoe ancients ? lol lol lol...
looks like we will have to see whats going to happen.. blizzard normally makes changes once the global population revolts!
they never said they will nerf horify and tiklandian, they said they will nerf only certain defensive skills that will remove perma immunity
well, that is kinda ok but I agree with bagstone about making affixes avoidable :/
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/iGGi-2191/hero/87768679
Jade set bonuses will be changed around Spirit Walk so he probably will have Spirit Walk whenever needed.
https://twitter.com/_JohnYang/status/572923674249969666
Regarding Tiki (although I have even more damage without it) I wouldn't be able to clear GR40+ with my pet doc if they change it - coz I would be dead most of the time...
Also, if they redo it (like skill starts resetting after it stopped "working"), you hardly will see any group combination going higher than GR50.
Is it kinda cheezy, yes it is, but especially the pet doc and his pets are so squishy that you need need to squeeze out all the cheese you can.
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel
wow this is bad news... i dont like this higher rifts the set will feel too weak without immunity..
"Do you guys not have phones?"
I've said this a couple dozen times before, so I'm just gonna leave it here.... you know, in case someone still doesn't get it.... maybe, just maybe we weren't supposed to be reaching GR XX in the first place.
The community is obviously breaking the limits imposed by the item numbers (sheer base dps and stats) every time, and more often than not they're doing it through what can be called cheesy mechanics - infinite resources, immunity, perma crowd control.
It's awesome seeing new builds break through previous records, and it has been shown time and time again that is possible (and not everything is figured out), and party compositions trying to push the limits too - but resorting to these mechanics to even compete is something people probably don't even want to.
To be honest, I think this is the biggest reason why, whenever they reduce the effectiveness of anything or implement new content, there's a huge spike in player power (and more power creep - a TRILLION damage! is the latest trend). Revamped Legendaries, then revamped Sets, then Legendary Gems, then Ancient items - just so that people don't rage about not being able to reach GR XX anymore, without realizing that numbers wise they were never even supposed to (old school Rimeheart...)
I welcome the change, but I'd also really like for them to take a step back and stop with the ridiculous number inflation. It's pointless and not gonna head us anywhere interesting. Take the WoW approach to this before we're doing a GAZILLION damage and our monitors can't even show the numbers.