September 11th was fake

[Corn Flakes]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=loose+change&hl=en

Watch it, makes a lot more sense than w.e you heard.

[Enlyth]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[Carloseus]

Corn flakes you have just offended 8/9ths of the country. you mean to tell me, that terrorists didnt hijack four planes and tried to fly them into important us buildings?? you mean to tell me that people on flight 93 werent calling their loved ones to say goodbye as they readied themselves to take over the plane and ram it into the ground?? you mean that there was a big government conspiracy to domestically attack their own country to rally support for something?? there is no bin laden trying to keep attacking us??

i have a HUGE problem with people like you. you believe that the government is out to get us. no. the video made NO sense. they are lies. how can you possibly believe that americans knew about it and let it happen??

as i see it, whoever does believe this does not belong in this country. if you think that the government, the best government for a little over 200 years now is out to get you then your not safe here. in fact, your not safe anywhere. we can blow up anything anywhere on this planet.

those of you who believes this trash corn flakes has put out is also a traitor. nothing else to it. you side with the michael moore's, the al gore's, the trash of america. get out. you dont like this country yet you work here, make the best check here, sleep, eat, do everything. you are taking that which millions have died for and then spitting in their face.

i am deeply offended by what you have done corn flakes. how dare you.

[Obsolete_hi]

I am just speechless..Cornfalkes...You are not a American.

[AcidReign]

People always looking for an excuse...

[darkjay]

listen... a fucken plane crashed 8 miles outside of my house and ur telling me it was fucken fake?? i wont even keep typing now

[Carloseus]

darkjay thank you for your support. always good to have more people speak up and prove that shit like this is not true.

[AcidReign]

I support you too, Carloseus.

It's nice to have some real patriots around.

[darkjay]

http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm
a list of the dead... but im sure it was a fake... asshole

[Umaro]

This is a very touchy subject but here is my opinion on it. It makes me totally sick to see people post their comments like "your not an american" "you make me sick" "your not a patriot" and so on because someone has a different opinion then you.

America is doing a lot of horrible things right now, including taking away your own rights and freedom's and no one is saying shit. Its good to have people look at the other side of things, and because someone doesnt have the same opinion as you does not warrent the kind of replies your giving.

Its entirely possible that the United STates government planed this all, hell, they managed to goto war with an entire country that never even attacked them based on lies, and want to know why they where able to do that? Because the same people here that instantly call cornflakes all these names sat there and accepted every single lie the US government was telling them about all these weapons of mass distruction that IRAQ had, and if cornflakes said the same thing during that time about the weapons, all you people would be calling him the same things.

Believe what you want, but him questioning that stuff does not make him any less of an american then you guys.

[mikebola]

hmm... well, I have to say it's some interesting food for thought. Now, if you watch the video, you'd understand it's not saying that 9-11 was fake, but that it was setup, or something along those lines.
Now, what's to say the government didn't have a hand in the entire event? it's not the first time... We know of the incident in pearl harbor, where the president himself knew of the impending attack, but purposefully ignored it, so our nation could go to war.
Also, I don't believe that the people were made up, because I at least KNOW OF some of the people on the planes who died.

Also, the other point is that all events can be picked apart, if someone wants to. (IE: the moon landing, kennedy assassination)

I believe that 9-11 was real, but it's still something worth thinking about.

[AcidReign]

Believe what you want, but him questioning that stuff does not make him any less of an american then you guys.

You can question the possibility of a fake attack, but you cannot assume it is without some type of confirmation. Sure the video makes some points, but whose to say that isn't all coincedence?

[FingolfinGR]

that attack gave Bush all he needed to invade Iraq. He didnt bother with Afghanistan or Bin Laden too much. In fact he left him alive and standing to send more threats to give him even more excuses to attack even more countries. People died, in many countries. We cant be sure ofc. But better take care about that. Its a fact that Bush was warned about the possibility of an attack weeks before it happened and did nothing. Its also a fact that family Bush and family Bin Laden won alot from the invasion in Iraq too (ofc it had to be added to "war against terror" that didnt convince anyone - it was a cheap excuse that cost a big lot of lives to keep the price of dollars up)... makes u think some more... strange coincidence, isnt it?

[darkjay]

i will still continue to support our troops no matter what

[unwritten law]

that guy should be arrested for treason

[darkjay]

good god, if that happend people would flip out...

[Hello]

Everyone can make a little movie against something and everyone can say something that can make sense.. that video was realy bad quality and a home project. it was totaly boring to watch. I watched it 20 min
it has the same music as the homemade ghostmovies where they want to proof that ghosts exists...

Bush is a big A-hole that are an oilfreak and he does not care about something else than huge world POWER! i have never liked that big gay.. always the biggest jerks gets the overwhelming power..

if Bush cares: How come his country is a drug addicted country with guns everywhere? he shuld hire a fucking army and clean his country from ilegal stuffs
put every nobrained gang member into a BIG fucking jail :)

Why still beeing superangry on other ppl only cause they believe in other things than you do?
if you dont believe in god and your best friend does. would you be mad at him then?

Well there is only one kind of people and that kind are you but everyone does not enjoy the same thing. someone want love someone worldpower and someone just want to be.. bla bla bla ;)

if you defend ppl with high power to all costs you shuld realy get a LIFE.
you are not anybodys bodyguard and you will never be..
Get a girl to protect instead little dreamers.
Usa want's war Thats why bush is still Some big Hotshot
move to sweden if you want real peace. the land without a fucking war
a land that dont care about things that other ppl owns:
oil for example: Swedes buy their oil they dont start war to let a couple or thousands die to get some free oil..

Have a funny bunny day all. .

[FoA]

hehe thats funny.

i dont no which 2 belive as i dont give a fuck at all.

gg cornflakes.

[Carloseus]

This is a very touchy subject but here is my opinion on it. It makes me totally sick to see people post their comments like "your not an american" "you make me sick" "your not a patriot" and so on because someone has a different opinion then you.

Believe what you want, but him questioning that stuff does not make him any less of an american then you guys.

umaro no offense but you said it made you totalyy sick to see people post their comments like "your not american" "you make me sick" "your not a patriot".
hypocracy??? you said it made you sick to see people say others made them sick.

as for believing in whatever you want, yes its true, they do have a right to an opinion and to speak it. the reason they can is because our soldiers are out there fighting for those rights. so basically they are protecting your right to bash them. do remember that we have a right to opinions and free speech as well.

if you do not promote freedom, democracy, and justice then your not an american. america was built on those factors. why is it bad to expand those important rights to people that do not have them?? isnt it noble to give out freedom and democracy to those who dont have it, like bread to the famished??

in all umaro you have a semi-valid point. but when you try to tie it with logic, reason, and morals it crumbles.

[FoA]

sup Carloseus long time no c

[Carloseus]

Everyone can make a little movie against something and everyone can say something that can make sense.. that video was realy bad quality and a home project. it was totaly boring to watch. I watched it 20 min
it has the same music as the homemade ghostmovies where they want to proof that ghosts exists...

Bush is a big A-hole that are an oilfreak and he does not care about something else than huge world POWER! i have never liked that big gay.. always the biggest jerks gets the overwhelming power..

if Bush cares: How come his country is a drug addicted country with guns everywhere? he shuld hire a fucking army and clean his country from ilegal stuffs
put every nobrained gang member into a BIG fucking jail :)

Why still beeing superangry on other ppl only cause they believe in other things than you do?
if you dont believe in god and your best friend does. would you be mad at him then?

Well there is only one kind of people and that kind are you but everyone does not enjoy the same thing. someone want love someone worldpower and someone just want to be.. bla bla bla ;)

if you defend ppl with high power to all costs you shuld realy get a LIFE.
you are not anybodys bodyguard and you will never be..
Get a girl to protect instead little dreamers.
Usa want's war Thats why bush is still Some big Hotshot
move to sweden if you want real peace. the land without a fucking war
a land that dont care about things that other ppl owns:
oil for example: Swedes buy their oil they dont start war to let a couple or thousands die to get some free oil..

Have a funny bunny day all. .


omg dude. i posted earlier about oil. nvm that. first of all bush cant pass radical changes because no one in washington has the balls to approve it.

second we dont want war. there is an old saying "he who wishes for peace must prepare for war" or also "war is better than a bad peace". these were from romans and greeks.

third you are wrong on beleifs and where most ppl stand on them. i dont beleive in god, but all my other friends do. i dont care. i have my own opinions and they have theirs. my problems and anger arises when other people attempt to force their opinions onto me so that i agree with them. this is why i have such a big problem with gay marriages and rights. if they want to be treated as normal people then stop calling attention to yourselves.

fourth and last bush does not want world power. he's the president. he practically has the world giving him a bj. he can one day decide he wants to blow up iran and they'll do it. think about it. if he wanted to take something over then it would be a lot less expensive and troop saving to just blow it up. if i wanted to take something over i would blow it up and just build over it.

simple quantum physics.

next in line please.

[FoA]

wow u can blabbal on somtimes

[Corn Flakes]

the reason they can is because our soldiers are out there fighting for those rights. Fighting for what right? The right to have cheaper oil? Or are we there to find the weapons of mass destruction that there has been no traces of. Oh and the people on the planes, why can't the govt take them and gas em in some kind of chamber, and tell everyone they were on the plane. Plus
our 200 year govt was the best, untill Bush came here looking to make some extra $$ and you think he cares if some people he doesn't know die? No, all that would worry him about that is he would have to make extra speeches, which by the way he doesn't write.

[FingolfinGR]

first of all bush cant pass radical changes because no one in washington has the balls to approve it.

not right, since Michael Moore has already proven that senators dont ever read which laws they pass. They just sign and drink some coffee.

second we dont want war. there is an old saying "he who wishes for peace must prepare for war" or also "war is better than a bad peace". these were from romans and greeks.

might be, but why not try to improve our peace and rush ourselves into war? Killing innocent people isnt what i call righteous, is it?

third you are wrong on beleifs and where most ppl stand on them. i dont beleive in god, but all my other friends do. i dont care. i have my own opinions and they have theirs. my problems and anger arises when other people attempt to force their opinions onto me so that i agree with them. this is why i have such a big problem with gay marriages and rights. if they want to be treated as normal people then stop calling attention to yourselves.

most of them wouldnt (try to) get attention to themselves if there werent some people making the daily stuff hard for them. They are forced out of society, thats why they call attention. To take what they have the right to have.

fourth and last bush does not want world power. he's the president. he practically has the world giving him a bj. he can one day decide he wants to blow up iran and they'll do it. think about it. if he wanted to take something over then it would be a lot less expensive and troop saving to just blow it up. if i wanted to take something over i would blow it up and just build over it.

As you said Bush has world power. Thats why he does attack every country he wants and blows up things anywhere it suits him. To secure oil prices mainly, yes. He gets payed for it. He's even payed more by the Saudis, but none really pays attention to it, right? He also never threatened China cause he knows it would be a disaster for him. A possible attack from there would tear the US apart and he knows he cant act like the big guy there. Bush is payed by the oil companies and his politics suit them more than the RIGHT thing for the rest of the world (including the citizens of the US and the soldiers that are sent to their deaths - plus the dangers of the so called "terror attacks" that mainly are a "retaliation" to the suppression caused by this politics).

and ur replies to Hello werent that good u know. U kinda threw urself out.

[AcidReign]

When will this forum turmoil end!

[mikebola]

I would like to know as well.

I also say that no one should be allowed to voice any opinion in politics unless they pass a test to prove they aren't moronic, and can use basic punctuation and capitalization!

BTW, with the oil thing... Bush and staff subsidize; that means they pay for part of the fuel we use. In UK, last time I checked, it was about $10 a liter, and in japan, it was $9 a liter. in the US, it's currently about $1 a liter, and dropping.

[Azurewrath]

Even though I'm not Americain I think you all talk too much about oil. Sure you have your own opion but watch out with your opion not to offend other people. Ofcourse on some subjects like 9/11 I think you cannot say its fake. It was a sad day for a lot of people and they dont apreciate if you say their families/friends died in a setup wich would result in war. I can say pretty sure it was not a setup. About the wars, sure there's some interest in oil, but America is a big country and what you all say if you wouldn't be allowed to use your cars on sundays like in the oilcrisis in the 1970's (atleast that's what happened in Holland) And the war is not just about oil. The NATO has troops in Afghanistan too fighting the Taliban and there not in there for oil. America has a vision wich sees democracy in all countries. If they think its important to persue that vision that's there opion. Bush was reallected so not everyone was against him at the time they already were in war. Your soldiers aren't there to be critised that they're there. Have some respect for your soldiers like darkjay has.

[Encryption]

dude corn flakes that's just fucked up. how the fuck can you even think of saying that 9/11 was a fake?!?!?!? i know for a fact that it was real cause my cousin died in that attack. i have half a mind to hunt you down. if i were you i'd retract that statement NOW!!!!

[Corn Flakes]

Encryption by fake i meant that Bush planned it, NO SHIT the fucking towers were blown up, and NO SHIT people died.

fourth and last bush does not want world power. he's the president. he practically has the world giving him a bj. he can one day decide he wants to blow up iran and they'll do it. think about it. if he wanted to take something over then it would be a lot less expensive and troop saving to just blow it up. if i wanted to take something over i would blow it up and just build over it.

He can't blow up Iran when he wants too, too many arabs would go nuts and riot and all that shiatt

[Encryption]

alright i sorry about that......yeah i wouldnt put it passed bush to do something like that

[Carloseus]

you are all so full of hate. im stepping back and leaving this forum turmoil simply because no one really takes in the facts i put out and because people from other countries are telling me, an american, whats going on here. i dont know what is happening in sweden and frankly, i dont care.

[FingolfinGR]

we're full of hate cause we dont like wars caused to raise the price oil is sold to the world except the US ofc? From what u say its most certain that either u dont know shit about whats going on in the world because of your countrys acts.

Also to answer about the NATO troops in Afghanistan, it was merely a distraction. How to start the "war against terrorism". Think they didnt even bother to capture Bin Laden. They just set the target to Iraq that tried to sell oil in euro to Germany and France. Cool, huh?

[Carloseus]

whatever dude. i dont really want to argue anymore. there is enough hate (FoA) on these forums. i think that we should get back to what these forums are for, diablo 3.

[Umaro]

umaro no offense but you said it made you totalyy sick to see people post their comments like "your not american" "you make me sick" "your not a patriot".
hypocracy??? you said it made you sick to see people say others made them sick.

as for believing in whatever you want, yes its true, they do have a right to an opinion and to speak it. the reason they can is because our soldiers are out there fighting for those rights. so basically they are protecting your right to bash them. do remember that we have a right to opinions and free speech as well.

if you do not promote freedom, democracy, and justice then your not an american. america was built on those factors. why is it bad to expand those important rights to people that do not have them?? isnt it noble to give out freedom and democracy to those who dont have it, like bread to the famished??

in all umaro you have a semi-valid point. but when you try to tie it with logic, reason, and morals it crumbles.

I do think its sick this day in age people are not allowed to have their own opinions that do not fall in line with your own. Also, no where in his post do i see him not promoting freedom, democracy and justice... in fact, if you take the point of view that he is not allowed to even question 9/11, then he doesnt have his own freecom, democracy and justice now does he...

[Fudlow]

my man carlos laid it down!!!

[Corn Flakes]

Thank you Umaro

[chuck-e]

i never got to see the video.... whenever i clicked o it it always said that it was unavailable...

but judging by the ways all u guys reacted to it... it wasnt very patriotic....

[Carloseus]

ummm, this was a very hard topic to discuss, and very touchy one at that. take the advice that i made a couple posts up and lets leave this behind us and get to what these forums are really about, diablo3. not because i fear i will be defeated (because in the end i wont) but because i would not like to cause another thread of bitterness and give each other more reason to resent one another. we are like a family, we shouldnt be fighting because that only breaks the family apart.

[muttonchops]

Also to answer about the NATO troops in Afghanistan, it was merely a distraction.You're full of self-righteous Euro bullshit. We were in Afghanistan because it was a known fact that that was where Osama Bin Laden was. That is an inarguable fact. However, due to Bush's economic goals, he shifted the war into a country that really shouldn't have been attacked in the first place. And we would have gotten him during the Clinton administration, however, the CIA and FBI refused to give basing rights to Clinton, so that he could launch a full scale attack on the Taliban, and terminate Osama. And so far, Clinton was the closest one to killing Bin Laden. And the only reason he couldn't get him was because of resistance from politicians who served under Bush Sr. And when Bush Jr. came into office, he tossed out all of Clinton's comprehensive information and battle plans against Osama, and basically didn't do anything for 9 months, hence 9/11 went off without a hitch.

And you can argue that 9/11 was a set-up by the Bush administration. Let's just say that despite all of the administration's failure to launch an operation with minimal accidents and screw-ups, they were able to commence a terrorist plan against their own country perfectly. Great logic, dipshits. Look up scientific reports on 9/11 and go to the library and you can find detailed books that give point by point information as to why it was not the government who was behind it.

So go ahead and rag on America, but let's just make one thing clear. Your governments are basically dickriding America. Your countries at first were all for the war, but as soon as things got nasty, you all bitched out and started protesting the war, just because your countries got proverbially bitchslapped. For example, the London and Madrid bombings. But you will still send troops under our flags, so that you can militarily support our cause, yet hide your allegiance from two-bit terrorists.

Now, the reason that America is so much tougher and would kick any Euro country's ass is because our country doesn't bitch out of a fight. Not to mention that we have da bombs. Sure, Euros have some bombs, but our bombs are bigger. For example, the atom bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan was the world naval super power up until WWII. But after swift island-hopping and two bombs, as well as major victories at sea, we demolished Japan. But I'm sidestepping from the issue. I just needed to address this whole issue of Euros attacking America.

Think they didnt even bother to capture Bin Laden.I'd like to see Greece do any better. Also, we almost had him, however, due to resistance from republican politicians and leaders of the CIA and FBI, they basically fought against Clinton, so that he couldn't do anything. And he still was the closest one.

Here is a few sources that completely demolish the 9/11 conspiracy. If some of you jackasses took the time to read it, this thread would probably be less populated.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Good job, asswipes.

[SoulCalibur]

This is the biggest load of bullsh*t thread.

[muttonchops]

This is the biggest load of bullsh*t thread.

Way to contribute to the thread, dipshit. Shouldn't you be bashing your head on the floor right about now? I mean, after all, you can't fix stupid. But that doesn't stop you from trying right? Like bashing your skull is gonna help. Idiot.

[Langlery]

Pollitcal Threads should be banned from Genral Discussion. A thread like this can urge new users to not register and become a member. My sugestion is make a politcal forum. Call it the Pandomonium Fortress.

[muttonchops]

A point that should be well taken. By the way, you spelled political and suggestion wrong. But then again, my aim is to stop certain people from registering. Those only once posters. And retards. If that happens, then my mission is a success.

[Langlery]

My spelling sucks and I didn't download the spell check

[Carloseus]

i dont have spell check. get a typing program and stop whining.

[Langlery]

I'm not whining!

[Glidehook]

Woah. Lotta naive retards in this thread.

Before 9/11, the Russians had their claims to the Caspian oil basin....but as of late 2001 Afghanistan became an American protectorate...meaning that the trillions of dollars in oil now belonged to the US...

So, I'm not saying that 9/11 is an inside job, I'm just saying that its very "fortunate" that it happened (from a business standpoint).


And can we take a look at some of the other countries that Bush included in the "axis of evil" during his last state of the union?

Burma: Has oil....a shitload (http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199901/msg00033.html) of it. Like 18K barrels a day.

Belarus: AMBO pipelines need to run across this country on its way to the adriatic sea, it has closer ties with Russia...and a shitload of oil.

VENEZUELA: Besides having a lot of oil, their president
(Hugo Chavez) is being demonized on the news as a brutal dictator. Last September he visited Harlem and set up a program for cheap heating oil for Americas poor. You can read all about it here. (http://helenair.com/articles/2006/09/22/national/a05092206_02.txt)

And heres a video article of Pat Robertson asking the president to assassinate Chavez.... (http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006)

Chavez wants to help Americas poor, and the GOP wants him dead. Who is the real enemy here, you morons?



All of this isn't even about the oil: it's about dropping stocks, triggering recessions, and cooling off the US economy.

BTW, Do any of you know how much money defense contractors steal from american taxpayers every year? Billions! Thats why all these wars are hap....

Eh, Whats the f**king point explaining this to you. Go Bush.

[muttonchops]

Chavez wants to help Americas poor, and the GOP wants him dead.A classic example of the evident fact that Republican politicians are manipulative asshole businessmen.

Before 9/11, the Russians had their claims to the Caspian oil basin....but as of late 2001 Afghanistan became an American protectorate...meaning that the trillions of dollars in oil now belonged to the US...A good point to bring up. Man...this forum is starting to get some more intelligent posters.

And the whole reason that Bush is interested in Iraq is so that American oil companies (owned by republicans, don't deny it) can have control over the oil prices. Proof, you ask? How to you explain this seemingly inexplicable drop in oil prices, coincidentally before the elections? It's obvious that American companies have a good bit of power over oil prices. However, many people make the assumption that all oil companies are owned by the countries in the Middle East and Southwest Asia.

The hostility between Bush and these countries is obviously because he wants to influence non-trade so that American companies will continue to have more power over the price of oil.

[Carloseus]

o boy. where to start.

Woah. Lotta naive retards in this thread.

Before 9/11, the Russians had their claims to the Caspian oil basin....but as of late 2001 Afghanistan became an American protectorate...meaning that the trillions of dollars in oil now belonged to the US...

So, I'm not saying that 9/11 is an inside job, I'm just saying that its very "fortunate" that it happened (from a business standpoint).

heh, you really think that the president may have had something to do with 9-11 to cause it?? are you out of your mind?? good job calling me naive though, it does make me a whole lot willing to accept your views. from a business aspect, the us is able to take all the oil on the earth so there is no argument that we needed a war to take it. if we want it then we will take it and thats that. the reason you wont acknowledge this is because you fail to realize that the entire planet has its head in our crotch trying to find a better way to please us. businessly speaking, we have the power to destroy every other economy in the world, and without war. simply taking them out of the list will throw them into a state of chaos and destruction.

And can we take a look at some of the other countries that Bush included in the "axis of evil" during his last state of the union?

Burma: Has oil....a shitload (http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199901/msg00033.html) of it. Like 18K barrels a day.

well, we should look at the country and not its benefits to us right??


Belarus: AMBO pipelines need to run across this country on its way to the adriatic sea, it has closer ties with Russia...and a shitload of oil.

did you know that china and iran and russia are becoming big friends?? dont we have problems with iran?? is it possible that if we declare war on iran russia and china will step in?? is it possible that we can cripple russia if we control its oil??

VENEZUELA: Besides having a lot of oil, their president
(Hugo Chavez) is being demonized on the news as a brutal dictator. Last September he visited Harlem and set up a program for cheap heating oil for Americas poor. You can read all about it here. (http://helenair.com/articles/2006/09/22/national/a05092206_02.txt)

And heres a video article of Pat Robertson asking the president to assassinate Chavez.... (http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006)

Chavez wants to help Americas poor, and the GOP wants him dead. Who is the real enemy here, you morons?

well, im a conservative and i dont like this guy. i like some aspects of bush but not all of them and i definately think that we should support those that we vote into office dumbsh*t. chavez has also offended the leader of this greatest country and the country itself. he is like the mexican president that comes and asks for money. i am of hispanic culture, and i like none of the countries below mexico. they are a disgrace to its people simply because they are inefficient and do their people no good.

the point is that chavez is a stupid leader and instead of "helping" his people he helps the "poor" here to rally support for himself.

All of this isn't even about the oil: it's about dropping stocks, triggering recessions, and cooling off the US economy.

i have no problem with this whatsoever. we maintain our economy well, and make us wealthier. the us economy is still the strongest one there is and the strongest its ever been. what do you have to complain about?? because we get more oil, we can turn our attention to making better ways for oil efficiency and even different ways to power vehicles and cities. and its not like we arent helping those countries out anyways.

BTW, Do any of you know how much money defense contractors steal from american taxpayers every year? Billions! Thats why all these wars are hap....

the stupidity of this argument is absolutely staggering. do you know how much entertainers are paid?? more than anything the government or its officials are. billions go into movies, music, games, television, and sports. why dont you whine about those for a while???

and to settle your war theory, we like war. war makes us better and stronger. stop bitching, because remember what happened after WWII. we grew as an economy, we grew as a nation, and we ended up doing extraordinary things in 60 years. technology has grown so much that it isnt even funny. dont worry about the wars, if we support them all then we will never lose. america has never lost a war in the battlefield, its at home where we lose. its because of people like you that vietnam happened, which resulted in lost troops and millions of innocent vietnamese slaughtered by the northern invaders.

Eh, Whats the f**king point explaining this to you. Go Bush.

yes, your explanations are well made lies, but i see through them. that is why there is no point of you saying that. i dont support bush completely, but we as a nation should unite and support the leaders WE elect into office instead of bitching about it and contradicting every word he says. my opinion is that you listen way too much lies from that fatass michael moore. go listen to dennis praeger, or glen beck. if you have HNN then tune to it in the afternoon and watch Glen Beck. that should pull you back into reality.

[D-Day.77]

U Mother Fucker U Need To Rot In Hell U Commy Bastard Wath Is Wrong With YOU!? Oh The God Dam Terrist Never Hit The Trade Towers Where The Fuck Did U Get That Asshole Ur Fucked Up U Are Not A Amercican And U Never Will Be U Sorry Sob Go Fuck Urself Terrist Bastard. ALSO I MIGHT NOT LIKE PRESIDENT BUSH BUT AT LEAST HE NOT BEING A PUSSY AND HES GETTIN THE JOB DOWN BY KILLIN THE GOD DAM TERRORIST! THE ONL THING HE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER WOULD HAVE TO SENT MOR SOLIDERS OR NUKE THE WHOLE GOD DAM MIDDLE EAST ALONG WITH KOREA. The reason i say this because the middle east is like a hydra u cut one bad head and u get 2 mor. Plz excuse my laughage to those youger audiences and those that this offend except te person that wrote this thread. o and just for the record i would want to do the same as muttonchops except the end effect wit u in the middle east full of american hating terorist that would kill u in the most painful way possible.

[Carloseus]

thank you for your patriotism but it is a little hateful. try not to let it out so rawly next time. but yes your analogy to the hydra is correct.

[FingolfinGR]

first off:
Am i the only one who didnt make any sense of the last post?

2nd:
we already discussed about the US politics, especially when it comes to what the US does that affects/destroys other countries. We didnt really agree anywhere, but at least we tried to talk about it.

Thing is that in most of the points you (Carloseus) deny to see the facts. By simply saying you're conservative u kinda "shield" urself from anything.

did you know that china and iran and russia are becoming big friends?? dont we have problems with iran?? is it possible that if we declare war on iran russia and china will step in?? is it possible that we can cripple russia if we control its oil??


The US are too scared to touch China. Biggest developing economy in the world, has nuclear weapons (but ofc, its too tough to attack, so better back off). Russia is already crippled. Can be very dangerous on their own ground and even the way they are strongly weakened they can resist really much. As of Iran? Its not as easy as Iraq. Thats why they wont be bullied by anyone. And ofc thats why the US wont attack them without all their allies (that ofc dont agree with an attack - except the UK ofc).

about:
from a business aspect, the us is able to take all the oil on the earth so there is no argument that we needed a war to take it. if we want it then we will take it and thats that. the reason you wont acknowledge this is because you fail to realize that the entire planet has its head in our crotch trying to find a better way to please us. businessly speaking, we have the power to destroy every other economy in the world, and without war. simply taking them out of the list will throw them into a state of chaos and destruction.

having the power to do it, doesnt give you the right to. I've seen many great powers fall to others. During WW II (that you so proudly talk about), the really small and not really powerfull Greece managed to stop the Italian armys march through the Balkans and force them back through Albania. We even managed to delay the German forces for several weeks and help win the war in Africa that way. The USA only joined the war AFTER the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, just before the war was over and did the biggest war crime in the world by using a nuclear weapon on a defeated country (condemning not only the non-military people that lived there, but the future generations as well).
In a war against Tyranny most people bunch up and are able to accomplish things that before seemed impossible. Big powers are too arrogant to notice that (thank god) and thats what brings them down, in the end.

chavez has also offended the leader of this greatest country and the country itself.

Actually he said some very big truths. And i really doubt Bush IS the leader. Hes just a puppet. Oh, i again doubt it that the US are the greatest country. To your point of view, it might. To most others, its definitely not.

and to settle your war theory, we like war. war makes us better and stronger. stop bitching, because remember what happened after WWII. we grew as an economy, we grew as a nation, and we ended up doing extraordinary things in 60 years. technology has grown so much that it isnt even funny

didnt see any cultural breakthrough coming from the US during these 60 years. Only weapons and death. Nothing to be proud of.

dont worry about the wars, if we support them all then we will never lose.

The arrogance i talked about earlier.

america has never lost a war in the battlefield

ahem, when did the US actually fight on a field? None of the latest wars, at least. Iraq? After a few weeks bombing and you still havent cleared it from the rebels. Afghanistan? Just a few bombs and Bin Laden is still out there.
Vietnam? (it hurts, i know).
But its truth that it hurts most at home. Because people in there are too blinded to see whats going on and support the right people and the wrong cause.

because we get more oil, we can turn our attention to making better ways for oil efficiency and even different ways to power vehicles and cities. and its not like we arent helping those countries out anyways.


Actually you dont.
1. By bombing a country and killing its citizens, destroying the facilities these people built over the years and taking THEIR oil to use/sell you cant expect anyone to believe you help.
2. The USA are the only major country that hasnt signed the Kyoto treaty (or how exactly its called). For those that dont know what its about, its about protecting the natural environment. Yes, the USA are the country that polutes the planet most in the world. Great contribution if u ask me.


yes, your explanations are well made lies, but i see through them. that is why there is no point of you saying that

you dont see facts. i dont think ur bad. Ur completely misled, thats what i think. If you stop being a lamb, following a dumb shepphard (prolly misspelled again) - talking about Bush - you'll see the whole picture a bit better.

[D-Day.77]

Now that ive taken the time to read more of the post i feel really stupid for wat i said about u cornflake for me to say all of what i said goes against something that is very important to america and that is free speech but im not sorry to u just everyone else. I still hate u! But i guess u cant be a commy or a terorist just someone i dont like you and would very much like to punch in the face. To all except corn flake I am very sorry about my lauguage and my short sited early opion Plz forgive me.

[Karlas]

I honestly believe people that come up with shit like this are terrorists themselves. Their only goal isnt the truth but to make people feel more afraid, and feel hatred and distrust against the american government. The exact same goals as the terrorist bastards themselves.

[Carloseus]

i would like to know what is up with all this anti-amercanism. i am a patriot of my country, and do see the flaws within it however. but i can never call it a criminal because we are not. if you call us evil, then who is the good?? the us has always held the torch for freedom and democracy, right and justice.

yes i know bush is not the best, but i do know who was. it was the president who collapsed the soviet union. none other than our president Ronald Reagan. that is who i would like in the white house. yes maybe he wasnt perfect but he was a damn good leader and the us spiked upwards faster than any other time before.

back to the matter, who would you have in the white house?? what would you do if you could decide?? give me solutions, dont just rehearse the problems. its easy to back off when you step into a mess, but it matters when you dont and you solve the mess. tell me how you would change all this.

oil. that is a huge debate as well. to tell you something, we arent killing any innocent out of cold blood and taking their oil, that is a lie and you are trying to fool everyone else who is reading this. a way i know this is because of the actual footage of troops marching and people are still thanking them and offering what they have to these fighters for democracy. why would people line the streets in celebration of our soldiers if they kill them for oil?? its ridiculous.

did you know that oil fields are big targets for terrorists? yes terrorists are targeting these natural resources, either taking control of them, or turning them into giant candles. wouldnt it be better if we can control them and guard them for the country?? because remember. we took control of the country about 4 years ago. if we wanted the oil there we wouldnt have had the oil prices go up.

The USA are the only major country that hasnt signed the Kyoto treaty (or how exactly its called). For those that dont know what its about, its about protecting the natural environment. Yes, the USA are the country that polutes the planet most in the world. Great contribution if u ask me.


"China's rapid industrialization has increased pollution and made it the world's leader in carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide) emissions. China has some relevant regulations: the 1979 Environmental Protection Law, which was largely modelled on U.S. legislation. But the environment continues to deteriorate. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution#_note-Ma-Ortolano) Twelve years after the law, only one Chinese city was making an effort to clean up its water discharges. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution#_note-Sinkule) This indicates that China is about 30 years behind the U.S. schedule of environmental regulation and 10 to 20 years behind Europe." -wikipedia.org

hmmm wasnt china a signer of this "kyoto" treaty?? and yet china is "30 years behind the U.S. schedule of environmental regulation and 10 to 20 years behind Europe." if you ask me, the US is the country making then biggest effort to protect the natural environment. this goes to prove that the US is far ahead of even European countries, not just China.

you dont see facts. i dont think ur bad. Ur completely misled, thats what i think. If you stop being a lamb, following a dumb shepphard (prolly misspelled again) - talking about Bush - you'll see the whole picture a bit better.

well, i at least challenged and in my opinion correct one of your assertions, the one about the pollution. it seems to me that this lamb of a dumb "shepherd" has proven you wrong with his misleadings. i know bush isnt perfect, i have said it before. but i think we should still bite our tongues and choose a better president next time instead of bitchin and moaning about it. i have a much clearer picture of the world than you do, at least in one view. and in that aspect i can prove it by cold hard fact.

another thing is that when this thread was brung back to life i spoke against it, saying that it would cause bitterness and more resent for one another. i advised we forget it for i dont like to be angry. but here we are again, calling each other liars (on my foul) and dumb lambs following dumb shepherds (on your part). i myself know that you are an intellegent individual and see the differences in our reasoning. so please if you have anything else you would like to say, say it and we shall close this thread. i am willing to let you have the last word in this debate for the sake of no more fighting. thank you.

[AcidReign]

It wasn't fake. If it was, someone would have leaked information to it, since it would be the largest, heinous crime of all time. And remember, terrorists admitted to doing it, and they fight us back as hard as they can. Not even money would drive a person to commit such a disasterous attack. You'd have to be seriously mentally handicapped (and no, President Bush or any other organization is not).

For those that think it was truly fake - get a box of Kleenex's and go cry elsewhere. Or better yet, leave the country that YOUR troops are fighting to keep safe and allowing you to say the things you are saying.

P.S. - I suppose when North Korea launches a nuclear missile on the U.S., that will be fake, too, right? Pfffft. Shove it.

P.S.S. - Sorry, but those are my views.

[Thasador]

AcidReign is right. Although we do have the right of freedom of speech, we still need to watch to what we say to others. That's unless you like the flamming.

[darkjay]

N korea has nukes, they hate the US does anyone fail to see a problem here??? and no im not talking about blizzard not able to sell as many copies of sc
im not saying they should be bombed... lets try peace talks, w/o any threats at all, and see how far we get

[AcidReign]

Perhaps releasing StarCraft II will occupy the Koreans time for another decade...

[darkjay]

blizzard has the one tool to cause peace lol... does anyone knowanyone high in the n Korean gov??? we could get sc2 and maby d3 lol

[FingolfinGR]

ok, this debate has a long way to go...

i would like to know what is up with all this anti-amercanism.

as i've said many times, i dont have anything against the people in there. Its just the way the country "interacts" with the rest of the world that bothers me. You may think your country looks like the protector of liberty for the rest of the world. For the rest of the world (with the exception of the UK and Israel) it looks like the biggest bully in the world. Arrogant cause its the only superpower left, yet scared shitless to attack without the allies (also incapable to succeed in any military campaigns - as Bush himself mentioned about Iraq this week).

i am a patriot of my country, and do see the flaws within it however. but i can never call it a criminal because we are not. if you call us evil, then who is the good?? the us has always held the torch for freedom and democracy, right and justice.


Quite a few things to say here.
About being a patriot there's nothing wrong. On the opposite, u should concentrate on the flaws. And not only the ones about how the country treats its own citizen, but the rest of the world aswell.
If invading another country without a valid reason isnt criminal, what is criminal? Why do you think the nazis attacked the ones they attacked? To gain power. Power these days is the control over the oil. Thats what the US fights for, not for freedom. After Saddams removal (he was supported by the US when he first took over to fight with Iran, for those that dont know it) the country wasnt liberated. The government set by the US didnt manage to keep balance and theres a civil war with the army of the US right in the middle of it (everyone has casualties there).
In outer politics you're sort of evil for the rest of the world, yes. The real problem is there's no "good" atm. Europe is still kinda weak (and with the UK doing whatever the US says it wont get any better either). Middle-East still has problems (they had some before getting more by you), Russia is way weaker than it used to be, China isnt a real republic at all. Hopefully some other force will rise to bring balance again.

The US never held the "torch for freedom and democracy, right and justice". In fact, it stopped being the good guys just before WW II (when they bombed Hiroshima and that other city).

yes i know bush is not the best, but i do know who was. it was the president who collapsed the soviet union. none other than our president Ronald Reagan. that is who i would like in the white house. yes maybe he wasnt perfect but he was a damn good leader and the us spiked upwards faster than any other time before.


God, from bad to worse. Cant you pick a president that wasnt a puppet/complete retard?
The Soviet Union got destroyed from the inside btw. It was Michail Gorbatchow that opened the borders and let it collapse.
You got to think about how evolved the US are in a cultural way. Nothing happened there for ages.

Good point about China and the Kyoto treaty or how its called. But you got to keep in mind that China just started to "evolve" industrially. The US keep polluting the world for many decades (without including the nuclear tests on some islands in the Pacific - together with France among others).

it seems to me that this lamb of a dumb "shepherd" has proven you wrong with his misleadings.

what proven me wrong? There are some facts about that you dont want to see (Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 for example). You hate liberals, you said that before. I dont hate anyone. I'm really open minded and try to see more than people show me, thats the difference.
Main problem is that most people look, dont see.

i have a much clearer picture of the world than you do, at least in one view. and in that aspect i can prove it by cold hard fact.


from what i've seen you stating, i cant really believe that.
Try not to wear ur "republican glasses" when u talk about that stuff. Think reasonably and u'll see my point. You have certain stereotypes in your head that make you not see whats obvious.

[Carloseus]

ok. are you done?? i gave my word that i would allow you the last words on this debate. i have so much to say but am a man of my word and will keep to it no matter what. i would also like to say that i am not a republican, but a libertarian. i am conservative. i am a capitalist, and yes, i do hate liberalism, not liberals, but the ideals they believe in. that is all i will say since i apparently did not clear that out before.

so are we finished?? i would carry out this debate but i sometimes get passionate and do tend to find it easy to start rivalries. i respect you and wish to continue to respect you as a brother for a similar cause, not as a person i constantly want to harrass and prove wrong. so what do you say??? do you wish to continue this thread or respect each other's opinions and say no more?? i am willing to continue the discussion as long as neither of us, or anyone else for that matter, takes it too far. i am all for fair play and a clean discussion, as long as the other party plays by similar rules. (and yes i will say that we are both guilty of offending the other somehow)

[FingolfinGR]

i never asked you to stop defending your ideas. You can keep trying to persuade me and i'll do the same. I'm not harassing or insulting anyone. I'm just trying to show you some things you dont get to know because exactly you live in the United States. I respect you anyway and i think i never insulted you in any possible way. I just suggested you try to see things from another point of view.

[muttonchops]

U Mother Fucker U Need To Rot In Hell U Commy Bastard Wath Is Wrong With YOU!? Oh The God Dam Terrist Never Hit The Trade Towers Where The Fuck Did U Get That Asshole Ur Fucked Up U Are Not A Amercican And U Never Will Be U Sorry Sob Go Fuck Urself Terrist Bastard. ALSO I MIGHT NOT LIKE PRESIDENT BUSH BUT AT LEAST HE NOT BEING A PUSSY AND HES GETTIN THE JOB DOWN BY KILLIN THE GOD DAM TERRORIST! THE ONL THING HE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER WOULD HAVE TO SENT MOR SOLIDERS OR NUKE THE WHOLE GOD DAM MIDDLE EAST ALONG WITH KOREA. The reason i say this because the middle east is like a hydra u cut one bad head and u get 2 mor. Plz excuse my laughage to those youger audiences and those that this offend except te person that wrote this thread. o and just for the record i would want to do the same as muttonchops except the end effect wit u in the middle east full of american hating terorist that would kill u in the most painful way possible.

Where to start....first of all, not all people in the Middle East and South West Asia are terrorists. You're a racist for saying that. Which brings you that much closer to being just as bad as a terrorist. But you're right, committing genocide is definitely the answer to this terrorist attack. After all, 1000000 Muslims dead=6000 Americans dead, right? I mean, there is no chance that there is an innocent soul in the Middle East, right? I'm sure they're all strapping bombs to their chests at this very moment. Making sweeping generalizations about any group of people is stupid and you should refrain from doing it, lest you become something along the lines of groups such as the KKK and Neo-Nazis.

Now, I'd have to say Bush handled this so-called War on Terrorism as well as a retard in a pool without waterwings. Sure, he tried, but he's failing miserably. But sure, let's give him credit anyways. I mean, in a country where we give trophies to little kids who get their ass kicked in soccer, that's the least we could do, right?

did you know that china and iran and russia are becoming big friends?? dont we have problems with iran?? is it possible that if we declare war on iran russia and china will step in?? is it possible that we can cripple russia if we control its oil??

Hold on there, China and Russia have been allies for quite a long time. This goes way back to the Cold War and the spread of Communism.

if you call us evil, then who is the good?? the us has always held the torch for freedom and democracy, right and justice.

Holy shit, you're ignorant. Who is to judge that democracy is for everyone, for starters. I happen to appreciate my country and such. And to say that America is the only good in this world is the most self-righteous and stupid thing to say. You're basically implying that no one else knows what is right, without the U.S. to lead the way.

Democracy doesn't necessarily work for everyone just cuz it worked for us. That is for many reasons. One of them being that countries in the Middle East prodominantly consist of Muslims. It may be hard to grasp, but people have different mindsets in different parts of the world based on religion, among other things. So the concept of democracy may not seem like the best option for them. Especially since they prefer to operate on religious beliefs.

[FingolfinGR]

i think i answered most posts well enough, Mutton. There wasnt a single solid reply after my last reply.

[Carloseus]

well, if you guys insist, i will continue. lets see....

Hold on there, China and Russia have been allies for quite a long time. This goes way back to the Cold War and the spread of Communism.


stick to the real issue. why are you bashing the way i said something if your not gonna get the real message?? yes china and russia go way back, but are lately strengthening freindships with iraq.

Holy shit, you're ignorant. Who is to judge that democracy is for everyone, for starters. I happen to appreciate my country and such. And to say that America is the only good in this world is the most self-righteous and stupid thing to say. You're basically implying that no one else knows what is right, without the U.S. to lead the way.

when did i say that the US is the only good?? in fact, i believe something like you. i believe that the US is flawed, but where i and many others disagree is that no matter the wrongs that my country has done before, we have given so much to the world and that the good we do overweights the bad. here, a demonstration for those who didnt get that.

US bads done<US good done

at no point did i declare that this country is perfect or the only good in the world. what i did say is that we have always held the torch for freedom and democracy. (inaccuracy i know, we began to hold that torch after WWII) if you guys werent so angry at this country you would see what we have done for the world. i dont have the complete list, but here is a starters list:

-Declared and successfully achieved independence from britain (the world power at the time)
-beat the british at an attempt to take over our country (pwned them at new orleans)
-helped mexico declare independence
-joined the first world war and helped the allies beat the axis powers
-went to WW2 after the japanese atrocities at pearl harbor
-pwned the japs
-led operation d-day where we retook control of france and pwned the germans soon after
(note= if we wouldnt of had entered the war, hitler would have overtaken all of europe and soon after the countries around it, until he secured his power over all asia and africa with the help from the japs.)
-brought down the soviets in the race for who was the better country. (if you guys didnt know, the us and ussr competed to outdo the other, to produce more than the other, and bring the other down by economic pressure. we won)
-put a the first man on the moon
-revolutionized the world of computers


and to make it better, we also led the world in the technological aspect, from making the first light bulb, to the first nuke, to the internet, and to the job market we have today. we have given so much to the world, and this my reason for believing that the US is the best country this planet has seen.

[muttonchops]

when did i say that the US is the only good??You have the U.S. pinned up as the epitome of good. And based on the phrasing of your statement, you said that there is no good without the U.S.

I do not need a list of points in order to understand what you're main point is. A lack of proper phrasing seems to be the only problem. I picked up your statement in a quote, so I did not quite have as much of a subtle approach.

and to make it better, we also led the world in the technological aspect, from making the first light bulb, to the first nuke, to the internet, and to the job market we have today. we have given so much to the world, and this my reason for believing that the US is the best country this planet has seen.

That's debatable. If you are talking about the country that has invented the most vital tools of civilization, I would have to say that Rome probably has it beat. If you are talking in terms of possession of technology, countries like Japan have us beat by miles.

[Carloseus]

very well, i thought you were trying to dodge the actual statement.

[FingolfinGR]

ok, i can do the exact same thing as u did and thus declare Greece as the country that held the torch of freedom too!

-Declared and successfully achieved independence from britain (the world power at the time)

- Declared and successfully achieved independence from the Osman Empire (a considerably powerfull empire during that time).

-beat the british at an attempt to take over our country (pwned them at new orleans)

-beat the Osmans at their attempt to take over our country (pwned them at many different places).


-helped mexico declare independence

-helped Cyprus declare independence

-joined the first world war and helped the allies beat the axis powers

just as it stands. Done it before you did, btw. (except perhaps that Axis was only at WW2)


-went to WW2 after the japanese atrocities at pearl harbor


-went to WW2 right at the start by not allowing the Axis forces to run freely through our country and supply their both fronts in Africa and to the east of europe.

-pwned the japs

-pwned the italians (the 2nd strongest army in europe after the Nazis).


-led operation d-day where we retook control of france and pwned the germans soon after
(note= if we wouldnt of had entered the war, hitler would have overtaken all of europe and soon after the countries around it, until he secured his power over all asia and africa with the help from the japs.)

-Managed to successfully delay the Germans from getting easy access to Africa. Cut off their supplies, also delayed their troops. Result? They got caught off in the hard, Russian winter and got pwned by the Russians there - was about the time u decided to attack the nazis in europe. Yes, the war was almost over at the time. The Africa front was mainly held by the English rebels. We also sent support there too besides interrupting the germans in any possible way.


-brought down the soviets in the race for who was the better country. (if you guys didnt know, the us and ussr competed to outdo the other, to produce more than the other, and bring the other down by economic pressure. we won)

-we're better lovers than all of you (its just as relevant)

-put a the first man on the moon


how did it help us(the world)? Getting the first man in space is more important - and it wasnt u that sent the first man in space, i think.


-revolutionized the world of computers


not more than the japs did. And btw most the companies that actually revolutionized the world of computers are international. They're only based in the US.

one more thing:
US bads done<US good done

i didnt see u mentioning any bad things... the few things u said as plus points are pretty subjective too.


in my eyes ur just too proud to see that to the rest of the world the US arent that well thought of.
Think of that and do something about it and then what u want to think of ur country might come true too (i really want a good superpower around - too bad theres none around atm).


*last second edit*

i also forgot to mention that Greece (even in more ancient times), was the first to define politics, democracy, science, philosophy and art. (that should be on top of the reply but to hell, i just remembered it).

[Gex]

Well, just like Americans are pissed off about 9-11, I'm sure that there's many, many countries who are pissed at the US and the most un-debatable gift it has given to the world: civilian casualties. It's a shame when any civilians get killed, and surely whoever 'did' 9-11 needs to be bought to justice, but c'mon.. surely the American leaders who've killed far more civilians overseas deserve to be bought to justice aswell?

Sorry to add to this but y'know.. it's not the American people that probably 80% of the world's population disagrees with, or even hates, but the track record it's war-hungry presidents have given it. 9-11 was a retaliation, just like the invasion of Iraq was (wrong people though, d'oh!)

And to boast about how powerful American military might is? I'll not go into it in detail, but..
Vietnam. There's so much hatred for America in Iraq right now that it's a sure bet the new generations are pretty much ALL being taught to join in with the jihad.. there's no way that America will root out all resistance there, short of nuking the country and starting again. But then, that's not the answer is it? It's just a shame that other moron leaders like Tony Blair don't figure this out and join in on the glorified game of cowboys and indians aswell

[FingolfinGR]

Well, just like Americans are pissed off about 9-11, I'm sure that there's many, many countries who are pissed at the US and the most un-debatable gift it has given to the world: civilian casualties. It's a shame when any civilians get killed, and surely whoever 'did' 9-11 needs to be bought to justice, but c'mon.. surely the American leaders who've killed far more civilians overseas deserve to be bought to justice aswell?

Sorry to add to this but y'know.. it's not the American people that probably 80% of the world's population disagrees with, or even hates, but the track record it's war-hungry presidents have given it. 9-11 was a retaliation, just like the invasion of Iraq was (wrong people though, d'oh!)

And to boast about how powerful American military might is? I'll not go into it in detail, but..
Vietnam. There's so much hatred for America in Iraq right now that it's a sure bet the new generations are pretty much ALL being taught to join in with the jihad.. there's no way that America will root out all resistance there, short of nuking the country and starting again. But then, that's not the answer is it? It's just a shame that other moron leaders like Tony Blair don't figure this out and join in on the glorified game of cowboys and indians aswell


i had to quote it.
By far the best reply i've seen so far. I kept saying it myself. But the fact remains that this "retaliation" happened when Bush needed it to open fire at Iraq that was about to sell oil to Europe in european currency (dollar prices started dropping already).
But as you said: The ones that had to pay for it (with their lives) were innocent people, in both the US and Iraq. Its tragic to see people defending these stupid war hungry pricks.

[PhrozenDragon]

Well, there are no good wars, and if people that were responsible for wars were to be charged by it, no one would start them. And not many would retaliate. But when it is war the leaders have to be able to do everything to ensure victory. That does not mean however that I support Iraq, they did not have any "supposed" nukes. But when you're in there you have to stick with it, even if the decision was stupid to begin with.

[Gex]

It is tragic but meh, people can think what they want to. Their defence is that ''our soldiors died for my freedom of speech'' .. seems like a giant pisstake to both the soldiors who most of wouldn't have actually wanted to be there, and the innocents that were killed in setting up this system of ''well, we've sacrificed our sons and daughters, our country is automatically great''

But, PhrozenDragon is right. As sad as it is, this war will go on and on and on and on.

[Thasador]

Their is no end to terrorism. There will always be jealousy, hate, greed, and need. If one country expresses this and the other country has what the other doesn't, there will be terrorism.

I understand this for my 3 uncles, 1 cousin and 1 grandfather who has been or is in the United States Army/Marines. I honor those who defend our country from terrorism.

[muttonchops]

The ones that had to pay for it (with their lives) were innocent people, in both the US and Iraq.The innocent always suffer as a result of war. It's a rule of thumb.

Its tragic to see people defending these stupid war hungry pricks.I hope you're not talking about me. In which case I'd have to say that it's tragic that you're only seeing a sliver of my basis.

First, I'll start off with my opinion (based on factual evidence, mind you)

The Iraq War was initially a good idea. Saddam Hussein killed over 61,000 Iraqi civilians, during his reign, that have been found. According to many human rights groups, there are approximately 500,000 that have been buried in mass graves. Approximately 41 locations have been confirmed and accounted for in terms of casualties. Another 270 locations are suspected to have dead civilians buried.

Approximately 100,000 casualties, were caused by the Iraq War. I can't find how many were civilians and how many were militant Iraqis. I did not take my information from places such as iraqbodycount.org for the reason that the number of civilian casualties may be slightly embelished. So this larger number includes opposition as well. But about half of them are civilians, give or take. America casualties rate about 2500.

Considering that the majority of sources put Saddam's number killed far above Bush's, between Desert Storm and now, it would seem that removing such a tyrant from power was overall, a good thing.

However, due to the lack of intelligence and proper procedure on Bush and his administration's part, the casualties are far above what they would be, had it been handled by a more competant president. In effect, this war has caused a backlash for America.

I defend the war, not how it was handled. Bush did a terrible job and managed to make even more enemies than what we had initially.

On the subject of WWII, I would just like to say, Fingolfin, on the pure basis of reality, countries like the British would not have made it, had America not jumped in. There would not have been enough soldiers for a successful D-Day, and there would have not been enough pressure on Germany's western front in order for them to collapse from being enclosed by the Russians, North Africa and the West, at the time of the end of the war. At best, the war would have ended a few years later than it did.

''our soldiors died for my freedom of speech''I find that quote to be rather innaccurate. Or at least, not from an intelligent source.

seems like a giant pisstake to both the soldiors who most of wouldn't have actually wanted to be there, and the innocents that were killed in setting up this system of ''well, we've sacrificed our sons and daughters, our country is automatically great''What soldier in their right mind, would want to go to war, unless they had a death wish? Trust me, I am absolutely positive that Britain has sent soldiers against their will repeatedly throughout history. It's not a matter of killing our children that supposedly makes our country great. It's the fact that America, during WWII, maintained superiority, defeating Japan, which was renowned for its naval arsenal, as well as lending a huge hand in the ultimate defeat of Germany. And from that point, America has been a super power and has been declared great.

Using the death of innocents is not a logical reason for mitigating the purpose of a war. Innocents will always die. However, a good deal could have been done in order to minimize casualties. But, such is the nature of war.

Their is no end to terrorism. There will always be jealousy, hate, greed, and need.

Jealousy, hate, greed and need are not intermingling ideas within the concept of terrorism. Although you are right that there is no end to terrorism. Which is why the idea of declaring war on a word is ridiculous. It's even more far-fetched than a war on drugs.

[Thasador]

To add to Muttonchops excellent information, during WWII, who was the country who was strong enough to fight 2 wars at the same time on both sides of the country?

[Ocarina]

I haven't read every reply in here, but I would like to reply to whoever said that there is a lot of hate towards America in Iraq right now.
You need to stop watching the news and talk to some real people. Real soldiers who were really there. Its a COMPLETELY different story than what we see on the news and read in the paper.

I heard something about power outages in places in Iraq and of course the media was blaming it on troops or bombings or whatnot. Talked to a soldier, he said the reason for the power shortages (not outages) was because hundreds of people actually had the opportunity to get and use Air Conditioning for the first time. It wasn't our bombings, it was them actually recieving luxuray for the first time!

Theres tons of stories with even happier endings all throughout Iraq. Yeah, of course, some people still hate us, but for the most part our troops are getting welcomed with open arms.

[FingolfinGR]

I hope you're not talking about me.
i didnt really mean you. I mostly ment the ones that think the way the Bush administration handled it was the right one. It was really based on economical reasons and not for the freedom of Iraq, be honest with that. Its also a plain fact that Saddam was set there and supported by former US governments.

Anyway, the war in Iraq atm is far from over. Not just the one between the rebels and the US/international forces there. There's also a civil war far more devastating than the bombing there (Saddam, no matter how much i may dislike him, managed to keep balance between certain factions and keep peace in a relative way).

[Carloseus]

if you hold the american leaders responsible for casualties in other countries, you must be willing to accept that leaders in other countries are responsible for casualties too. the reason i say this, is because using your reasoning would mean that lincoln was responsible for the millions of americans killed during the civil war.

to get back to you fing, i think that you just dont want to accept america. i think you have something against this country, and that you are just too stubborn to accept everything we have done. the list i gave was to state just some of the goods we have done, since no one else will state them. and you feel that the US is not a good superpower huh?? who would you like to be a superpower?? who would do a better job?? if you know then tell us. the US is one of the most giving countries ever. there is no other country that gives more than us.

that is what i have to say, about my reasons to love this country the way i do. let me paint the picture for you. think of someone you love, it could be your mom, dad, brother, sister, girlfried, boyfriend, wife, husband, anyone. now think about all the good times you have together, all the good things about that person. now remember all the bad things, the fights or the things that person does or has done. compare them for a bit, dont the good ones outweigh the bad?? that is the love i have for my country, and if you think that i dont know the bads, i do. but when others talk bad about someone you love, dont you throw that aside and defend that person?? it doesnt matter if its true, you direct your rage at the offender.

that is the love and passion one should have for his/her country. now give me more stuff i am too thick headed to accept. o and by the way, greece did play a role in the world, but the greatest it ever was in ancient times. they are just a shadow of what they once were. the greece slowed down german advance, the US is the main reason the germans lost. see that?? please use a better example than greece.

US>most of the world

yes i said it.

[Carloseus]

i didnt really mean you. I mostly ment the ones that think the way the Bush administration handled it was the right one. It was really based on economical reasons and not for the freedom of Iraq, be honest with that. Its also a plain fact that Saddam was set there and supported by former US governments.

there arent many that believe the operation was handled the right way. what everyone does argue though, is that it was the right thing to do. yes it was a economic reason, but also for the freedom of those iraqis. south of baghdad there were three mass graves, each containing 12,000 to 17,000 corpses. that doesnt count the other burials being found all over iraq. it was a genocide of his own people, and frankly someone that is crazy to do something like that to his own people gets me scared for those people. so i think that yes the freedom did play a large role in this, its just that the media is so negative that they refuse to show people that side of the story.

about our supporting iraq as former US governments, i know two things.
1. there has only been one US government for the entire history of the US
2. yes we did screw up, but isnt that our responsibility? to fix our problem??

sorry for the post, i started the one above this morning and found more posts when i got home from school.

[FingolfinGR]

if you hold the american leaders responsible for casualties in other countries, you must be willing to accept that leaders in other countries are responsible for casualties too.

i hold the ones that declared War responsible for most of the casualties during that war, yes. In that way of thinking, Austria was the major trouble maker in WW 1, Germany in WW2 and the US in Iraq. Quite logical, dont u think?


i think you have something against this country, and that you are just too stubborn to accept everything we have done.

as u said there are good and bad things that happened in this country. But the majority of the things that come out of it arent that good. I dont know how things in there are, i dont really care either. What i know and dont like is that atm, the US are the global bully if not worse.

and you feel that the US is not a good superpower huh?? who would you like to be a superpower?? who would do a better job??

i mentioned in a previous post but u probably refuse to understand. There is no other superpower atm. That fill you (the US) with arrogance. That allows u to commit illegal if not criminal acts against other countries without having to fear about the consequences. Thats not showing any righteous causes i think. On the opposite.
There is no other supowerpower and theres none ready to be a supowerpower. Not even yourselves are ready to be one.

please use a better example than greece.

if u consider how much less things Greece had to achieve what they (we) achieved its a pretty big deed. Also considering how big each country is. Try to scale things too.
And talking about firepower? Yeah, the US has the upper hand atm. But is that what matters? Not really. What i see is a big gap in there between technological and cultural advance. Sooner or later they all come down... its all a matter of how.

one last thing:

2. yes we did screw up, but isnt that our responsibility? to fix our problem??


fucking a place up once gives u the right to fuck it up again, eh? I dont see any problem solved atm. And once again: It wasnt about fixing a mistake either. Its about that "mistake" doing something that you dont want them to do.

[darkjay]

just think of life today, if america had kept the idea of isolationalism in WWII
the entire world praising the Reich Fuhrer

[Gex]

Ok, I've only read the first few posts that were made to mine but it seems that the whole fucking bullshit argument ''USA saved everyone in the world's asses during WWII" seems to be the backup plan cos they don't want to discuss the validity of the Iraqi war anymore. I wonder why.

America only put their asses out when they were attacked. Japan, by the way, made you their bitches. Just like the Vietnamese. Ok, so maybe you have the defence that Japan took you by surprise. Well, wake up! there was a WORLD WAR going on. Self-absorbed as you remain today. The Vietnamese you have no good reason for losing against. So, for your own honour that you seem to hold so fucking dear and precious, don't mention any wars that you won again. There'll always be someone to counter your argument. No war has winners anyway.

Muttonchops, my source is that: I have lost count of the amount of times that I have heard a Yank (because once an American becomes a patriotic extremist, he becomes simply a Yank) say "well, our soldiors have died for our freedom of speech so I'ma say what I like"..

Muttonchops, this one goes out to you again.. No doubt that Britian, just like any other country has sent many of it's children out to die, tragically. But the difference is that we don't look at WW2 as a glorious event. It was a fucking horrific one, not one that should be gloated about.

I don't want to sink to your level but it's hard not to. Just feels like the only way that Yanks can be communicated with is through the medium of anti-Americanism. Other than that it's ''stfu commie''




Just as a side-note: What would you pro-Yank..erm..Yanks have to say if China started selling arms (tanks, fighter jets etc) to the Iraqis. Wouldn't you say that the Chinese were fair targets for that?

Another game of cowboys n indians anyone?

[FingolfinGR]

very good points, mate!

[darkjay]

i didnt want to invade iraq in the first place... however i will support our troops no matter what, any country should do this, they have fought at least one war to defend your freedom

[FingolfinGR]

has anyone ever thought of "calling the troops back"?
What most people dont get in here is that what the US did to Iraq was INVASION. Is that legal? NO. period. end of story. The rest is just excuses.

[Gex]

Yeah but they might make themselves seem like a really good influence on the world if they keep bringing up WW2 and how big an asshole Saddam is. There's LOTS of dictators in the world, no?


Something to think about: why is it not called terrorism when it's carried out by the United States?

[darkjay]

ok lets call the troops back, let iraq fall apart more than it already is, full scale civil war, iran will just march in, but wait that isnt legal either so then the UN will write a letter expresing thier anger with them for invasion and we will end up back in iraq pushing out iran

and before u say that we was in thier illegally so was a few other countries

[Gex]

Ok cool, an intelligent remark

America is the main culprit, which doesn't justify the other countries getting involved no, of course not.

But the truth is that you have been in Iraq for so goddamn long that you would not know any more than your presidenct would how the country would be if you left it alone for a year or 2. Hell, the goddamn Iraqis probably don't even know what life would be like without America bombing them morning, noon and night, their soldiors kicking in their doors every other month, half of their sons rounded up and sent to a prison for no justifiable reason, their children torn to pieces by shrapnel...

..but yeah, every country is justified in being there

I'm not saying ANY country is right in being there, but it seems that the only people to ever defend their government's involvment in any war is Americans.

[FingolfinGR]

about ridding countries of dictators... has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government? Its all about what suits them more. To these guys theres always profit, not right or wrong. And the lack of othe supowerpowers makes it possible for them to do what they want.

whats also most important is not to let such things start. especially when you actually can do something about it (being in the country that does that stuff can allow u change some things too).

[Ocarina]

Hell, the goddamn Iraqis probably don't even know what life would be like without America bombing them morning, noon and night, their soldiors kicking in their doors every other month, half of their sons rounded up and sent to a prison for no justifiable reason, their children torn to pieces by shrapnel...

I'd please ask you to go back and re-read my post (post number 77 or thereabouts [page 8 with default settings]).

Stuff like what you mentioned is a lot less common then the media tells you it is.

Now please, don't label me as a super-unbreakably-stupid-"I love America because its just better" type of person, because I'm not.

I love America because, even though we aren't perfect and niether are our leaders, we are FREE and though we make mistakes we are BETTER.

Theres a reason we have more illegal immigrants than pretty much anyone else in the world right now. People wanna be here because its (in most ways) better than the alternatives. Just the truth.

Now, I don't want this to turn into a fighting match, so I'll see if you guys respond to this and maybe say a word or to back, but I think I'm done here. Minds are made up. Arguing isn't going to change someone overnight, especially on a topic like this. Thanks for listening.

[Carloseus]

about ridding countries of dictators... has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government?

isnt michael moore a radical?? doesnt he say a bunch of other crap that isnt real??

in all, this goes to everyone who disagrees with me. LOL. you are all too stubborn, and are jealous. we are the world superpower, and yes that does make us the best. that doesnt mean we're arrogant. in fact, we are the opposite. people here say how much america should get involved in world affairs and help all the countries that need it. i dont see your precious sweden or france doing what we do. concerning war crimes and illegal doings, when is it illegal to declare war?? you said before that we committed the war crime of dropping bombs on japan. but you failed to say they committed a "war crime" by out of the blue dropping thousands of unsuspecting americans. it was called pearl harbor. o yes, they got us off guard, and we suffered heavily because of the crime, the illegality they did. learn to view things from our point of view before you criticize.

remember when Rome was great?? how it conquered and grew, how it slaughtered thousands in its way to greatness?? sure, the roman empire gave lots of advancements to the world, using the water wheel, starting water and sewage systems, forming the greatest military at its time, and even changing the world with its architecture and use of natural forces to do what they wanted. but imagine all the peasants of other countries that were either slaughtered or enslaved, the cities burned to the ground, all the bad of rome. why is it we remember rome, because of the bad they did, or the good and what they contributed to the world??

this is the same thing with the US. i bet other countries saw rome as the superpower, and said, "look at all the bad things they do. they are criminals, they are arrogant, and they are power hungry." hmmmm sounds like someone i know. same with the greeks. they enslaved and treated macedonia as second class, trash. they waged constant war upon each other, they were angry towards their own. they were a self-destroying people, but they did a lot to help the world.

benjamin franklin, a father of this wonderful country, was a adulterer. ghandi favored young women. lincoln was a crybaby. notice that a lot of people who played a large role in the way the world works today were flawed. in the same way, we are not perfect. but we have done much more than you gex or fingolfinGR are giving us credit for. maybe your just angry that we are better. maybe your just taking your anger on the country that saved you from germany in world war II. no matter what it is you have against us, it is not logical, and not something that tells of the character you have.

to end this post, i would like to recite something from lord of the rings, from sam gamgee.
------------------------------------

"How could the world go back to the way that it was when so much bad had happened?... Folk in those stories could have turned back many times. But they didn't. They kept going on, because they were holding on to something." - Sam

"What were they holding on to Sam?" - Froto

"That there is some good in the world, Mr. Froto. And it's worth fighting for."
---------------------------------

that is what the US is fighting for. for the good in the world. we are fighting the suicidal crazed militant radical muslims, those that would have anyone who do not believe in what they do dead. we fight for the right to believe in what you want, for freedoms that are tied with responsibility, for the lives of people that would otherwise be under the guns of terrorists. we fight for people like you, FingolfinGR, to have the right to say what you think without your life threatened or taken. we fight for peace, for safety, to give other countries the chance to thrive. why dont you believe in our good?? you seem to find small ways to deflect my statements about our helpings to the world, yet there is no solid proof you have. the US has led the technological revolution that has brought us the gadgets we use today, the internet you use, the games we play. o yes, blizzard is an american company.

so why is it you hate so much?? i hate because everyone does. i hate arrogance just as much as the next guy. i hate lies as much as you. i hate just as much as you do, but the direction in which i direct that anger is completely different. you focus on us, and i focus on those that threaten my country. iran, north korea, even russia and china. i know however that we can destroy them all, even without nukes. even though it would be a good plan to "invade" north korea, i think we are doing good in having china and japan handle it.

i covered a lot on this post. take it all in, absorb it. dont just find things to isolate and attack individually, read and really think about it. ive taken your comments to heart, but more of your comments are attack-ish than fact. yes, i think you are a very intellegent individual, though your logic is, to me, very twisted and scewed. view the world from my eyes, because you apparently arent doing that.

[Gex]

Well Ocarina, I think that if that was really true then the American media would have a field day tooting their own horn about such a thing, since they seem to love doing that ('helping' Iraq like you just mentioned, 'saving' the world in WW2, putting the first man on the moon lol, and the other peoples that have been liberated by good ol' America)

Carlos, ok, this para's for you. I'm sure those ideas are valid ones in your head but to someone who hasn't had the glories of America shoved down their throat, to me it just looks like romanticised theories. The Romans gave the world a lot which you seem to know about, mentioning a few examples. Now, what has America given the world that can really be compared?
You saying about Japan and the illegalities of what they did. Well, considering what America has been up to recently, perhaps you shouldn't be bringing up such issues.
Maybe I'm just angry that you're ''better''? What the hell is wrong with you, brainwashed little stain? Better in that you have a higher body count? WAY TO GO, USA! Nothing to be proud of, sonny jim.
No matter what argument I have, it's not logical? What the hell? So, you're bringing up LOTR quotes in a political debate/rambling session, to prove a point? I don't think I need to add anything else here. Saved us? No, you retaliated against the Japs. You'd have sat, fat and quiet in the arse-end of the world until Nazis had either been crushed, or they had totally taken over Europe, Russia, Africa and god knows where else. Oh but really, gg man, gg.

Take it all in, and absorb it (your post). I don't think I could handle such utter brainfart in one sitting. You are completely self-important, and it's because of people like you that most non-Americans hate America.

But Ocarina, you're right. We all have our own opinions and even if this thread were to make it to 700 pages, no one would have any different ideas than the ones they have at the moment. So what's the point

I leave you guys to fight it out until the goddamn end of time if you wish to continue to do so, I'll just read occasionally. Unless anyone mentions me in specific, I'm done here. Made my point and it seems to not be sinking in to brains that are ''red white and brainwashed''

Hell, I'm just a little demon on a keyboard that hates America at the end of the day, why should you listen to me if what I have to say doesn't concur with what you think? Life's a whole lot easier to get through than to not consider what someone's saying, just put it down to jealousy (when they blatantly hate what you stand for). Ya really, I wish that I lived in America. Ya rly.

One more thing: it's been emotional.

[Carloseus]

yea, where do you live might i ask?? if you live here in my wonderful country, then please relieve yourself from my america, my glorious home for which millions have died. please move to france, or maybe even the middle east. that would remove you from such fat brainfarts as myself. go and do it. why should you meddle with the likes of me, people like me, or even my country?? you deserve better, i agree. i think that you should even go so far as to cut yourself away from everything we produce, export, or influence. that would totally show us americans.

in the end, you wont do any of that. you will remain an ingrate, a sad little mound of flesh that is supposed to be a human being. you will remain in this country, reaping its benefits, watching its tv, driving it its streets, and doing business with people like me. you will hate this country until the day you die, and hate yourself more for hating that which feeds and clothes you. you will forever bite the hand that feeds you, because that is all you can do, ask for food and spit in the face that gave it to you.

so shut the fuck (pardon my language everyone else) up and sit down. dont type or utter another word against this country you little shit. people like you make me sick, people like you will spit at their father and beat their mother. millions of people have died for your fucking right to say all that crap, and the least you can do is respect them and the country that has given you those freedoms. along with this, go ahead and think over your sick and twisted mindset, because the US still has a long way to go before it falls. you will never see the day the US falls, because there will always be those like me that will pick up a weapon and fight for what is right, to keep this country to falling to anti-americanism such as yours.

go and burn some flags dipshit. but remember that there will always be people that die for your damn right to do so.

does anyone else agree with this jerk?? this is what i said about irationality. this is pure hate people, and if you believe this in the US you dont belong here.

[Snotspill]

you dont belong here.

I just have to ask, don't belong here(the site) or the US?

EDIT: And happy birthday btw :D

[Carloseus]

the country, and i guess the site too, since it is something that the US started. you know the internet. but, you can stay if your pro american. thanks for bday.

[Gex]

yea, where do you live might i ask?? if you live here in my wonderful country, then please relieve yourself from my america, my glorious home for which millions have died. please move to france, or maybe even the middle east. that would remove you from such fat brainfarts as myself. go and do it. why should you meddle with the likes of me, people like me, or even my country?? you deserve better, i agree. i think that you should even go so far as to cut yourself away from everything we produce, export, or influence. that would totally show us americans.

in the end, you wont do any of that. you will remain an ingrate, a sad little mound of flesh that is supposed to be a human being. you will remain in this country, reaping its benefits, watching its tv, driving it its streets, and doing business with people like me. you will hate this country until the day you die, and hate yourself more for hating that which feeds and clothes you. you will forever bite the hand that feeds you, because that is all you can do, ask for food and spit in the face that gave it to you.

so shut the fuck (pardon my language everyone else) up and sit down. dont type or utter another word against this country you little shit. people like you make me sick, people like you will spit at their father and beat their mother. millions of people have died for your fucking right to say all that crap, and the least you can do is respect them and the country that has given you those freedoms. along with this, go ahead and think over your sick and twisted mindset, because the US still has a long way to go before it falls. you will never see the day the US falls, because there will always be those like me that will pick up a weapon and fight for what is right, to keep this country to falling to anti-americanism such as yours.

go and burn some flags dipshit. but remember that there will always be people that die for your damn right to do so.

does anyone else agree with this jerk?? this is what i said about irationality. this is pure hate people, and if you believe this in the US you dont belong here.


I'm English. Tool.
Way to waste 10 minutes on a wasted rant though. I give up, I feel bad that I have been arguing with you. I have been beating my head against a gargantuan wall of stupid for the last 5 odd posts.

oh, by the way...

lol.

I must thank you. I haven't laughed so hard while sitting at a computer.

[Carloseus]

well, no problem. however if you are beating your head on the wall of stupid, i have reason to believe youve done it before. maybe some of the wall fell into your head and slowly ate your brain, which explains your anti-american views. and the self torture also says a lot about your psychological stability.

on a side note, everything i said can apply to you in britain. people there fought and died for your rights, as well as americans. so basically i can modify my rant to apply to you. jerk.

[Gex]

Look man, I'm bored of this poor excuse for a debate. Don't call me out into it again and I shall say no more

First there was LOTR quotes, now you're saying some wall fell into my fucking brain? Er.. Good points. Ya rly. 1-0 America..

I think it's pretty evident that your argument has collapsed into itself.

Chalk it down to experience, this wasn't a victory for America or it's people. Some things aren't, difficult thing that is to grasp for folk like you

[Mr.Willie]

Well isn't this nice!

Okay, I have just a few questions to ask, if you will endulge me, Carloseus...

- What do you think freedom is?
- Do you think anything is wrong in America? It's actions? Its attitudes?
- Don't you think that immediately flagging down other people's views when they state their opinion about your country is just a tad hypocritical? You're raving on about freedom of speech, but it seems tyou think you're the only one allowed to have that.
- What good has George W Bush brought to the world?
- What bad has George W Bush brought to the world?
- How can a state justify electing an Austrian film-star with no political experience as govenor? I thought Americans were patriotic?
- Do you hate Muslims? Why? Or why not?
- Do you hate Catholics? Any other form of Christianity? Why? Or why not?
- If not then I guess you are religious yourself. So then, why do you believe in God?
- Do you believe that America is God's nation? What was it before it was discovered then? Ever asked the natives?
- Is America the perfect country? Why?
- If America is so great, then why does a scarily huge percentage of the world's population hate, or have negative views of, America?

I am not American, I am English, like Gex. But it seems to me that your American just shuns every word said by "foreigners" about their country, as if they aren't entitled to their opinion.

I do know decent Americans that are open-minded, enjoy hearing what other people have to say about their country, and say they never though of it like that. I have actually been to America, and been to Washington.

I think you should stop asking for people to look at it from your perspective, and look at it form their perspective. Also, don't forget to answer my questions :)

Please note: This post does not in any way suggest that I am "biggin'" up England or the UK. Just wanted to let you know where I was from.

[Carloseus]

im gonna end the debate with gex because he is just not willing to, as willie said, "stop asking for people to look at it from your perspective, and look at it form their perspective". as for your questions, willie, here are your answers:

f-reedom is what a country, a people have when they finally have some control of their lives, america is free.
-i know there is much wrong with america, no country is great. im just saying that so far it is more good than bad, and the attitudes we display are many and varied.
-i do rain down on people that offend that which gives them something. i just think it is way wrong when you spit in the face of those that have given you what you have, freedom. which is what gex is doing. he can only see the bad in the US, but i still see the good.
-about bush, i personally dont think he is perfect, in fact far from it. but if you go around iraq, you will see the thousands of iraqis that are overjoyed now that their free, and that the US has liberated them from such an oppressive dictator. in my eyes, bush saved a people, and also put a price tag on bin ladens forhead, something i doubt mr clinton would have done. i do recognize that we could be doing better right now, and that bush is definately not perfect. but since my country chose him, i will follow the leader, and im following with wide open eyes.
-that austrian might not have political experience, but no position in government requires you to have any. it would be nice if you did, but you dont really need it. arnold won because he had the right ideas and he appealed to people, because he said he would change things, and he did. he is wavering from his conservative self, but he definately did change things for california. besides, the US is made of immigrants. isnt it great to show how someone can really make a difference even though you werent born in the country??
-i dont have muslims, i hate the extremists militant people claiming to be muslim and that want to kill me simply because im not a militant muslim.
-i dont hate christians, but i dont believe in christianity. the thought of a god that is never angry and always merciful is not fair, in my eyes, to those that do work their whole life to be good. id rather just be a good person for the sake of being good, because its the right thing to do.
-i dont believe in god, therefore i do not think this country is god's nation. however i do believe that it is the best. im not going to feel sorry for natives, for war is war. that was one of the bad things we have done, the things we did with natives, but as they say, war brings the worst out of people. in that case it was true.
-i have already said before that america is not perfect, if it were we wouldnt be arguing about this
-the world doesnt hate it, and that is the biggest misconception out there. most of the world wants to come here, or at least have something of us. the chinese people like our restaurants, or clothes, they love a lot of our stuff. and the chinese also make a very large percentage of the world population so your question was totally opinion.

i know where your from. and im not biggin the US either. i just want people to start showing appreciation for my country, because without my country the world would be worse off. i dont have the exact facts, but if you guys want me to i can make up a list of what this country has done, and is doing. so yea, at least you dont try to offend the person your talking to, and i respect that. the reason i wanted to quit this debate was because people were becoming angry, and i dont like to speak to someone who will not see things from a different view, because it does not make for a debate. it makes for a war of words.

[FingolfinGR]

but if you go around iraq, you will see the thousands of iraqis that are overjoyed now that their free, and that the US has liberated them from such an oppressive dictator

have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).

and also put a price tag on bin ladens forhead

the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.


-that austrian might not have political experience, but no position in government requires you to have any. it would be nice if you did, but you dont really need it. arnold won because he had the right ideas and he appealed to people, because he said he would change things, and he did. he is wavering from his conservative self, but he definately did change things for california. besides, the US is made of immigrants. isnt it great to show how someone can really make a difference even though you werent born in the country??


I guess the fact that hes popular due to his action films had nothing to do with him being elected, right?
It wasnt common sense that got him elected, it was popularity. Most voted for the Terminator, not the real person.
Also as ex-president of the US and ex-oscar prize winner Ronald Reagan (i might have misspelled, forgive me about that) said: Its harder to win an oscar than become the president of the United States. In his stupidity he said something right.


i hate the extremists militant people claiming to be muslim and that want to kill me simply because im not a militant muslim.

question:
are muslims that took their weapons to defend their countries included in your "extremists" definition? cause most of the guys that got killed by the US troops only did what i just said.


id rather just be a good person for the sake of being good, because its the right thing to do.

whats the right thing to do? hmmm, let me guess. Fighting and taking over other countries to give privileges (?) to people from the country of which you come from (not specifically about you, talking about anyone). Being a good person requires of him to be forgiving, avoid violence in most cases (defense doesnt count as a violent act) and stuff like that. I like the Christian ethics alot, i just dont think the world is ready for them yet. (Just like communism).


the chinese people like our restaurants, or clothes, they love a lot of our stuff.

why do i have the feeling that US citizens also like many of the stuff that come outside the US too (chinese restaurants for example - btw, the only US food i know of is junk food). That doesnt prove that any country is any good or better.

without my country the world would be worse off

i wouldnt be too sure about that, but its mere speculation since your country is here and i think its gonna be here for quite sometime.


common sense mate. Common sense. Try to look the other way around too!

[Carloseus]

well i guess i cant really argue. no matter what the other says we will find ways to bring the other down.

have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).

no i havent been there but my uncle was there. and i also saw the iraqi people bringing down the sadam statue. those were iraqis, not the US armed forces.


the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.

where is the proof that bush is profiting from the war?? and the fact that we almost had him does not mean we let him go, its the fact that the desert rat was still far away and he could have gone anywhere. there werent enough forces to find and track him.


I guess the fact that hes popular due to his action films had nothing to do with him being elected, right?
It wasnt common sense that got him elected, it was popularity. Most voted for the Terminator, not the real person.
Also as ex-president of the US and ex-oscar prize winner Ronald Reagan (i might have misspelled, forgive me about that) said: Its harder to win an oscar than become the president of the United States. In his stupidity he said something right.

maybe it helped, but if it was just popularity and not his common sense he would be out by now. about reagan, (and you spelled it right) no it is not. its harder to become the leader of this great country, because many stupid actors and actresses get oscars. and dont call reagan stupid please, because he had the best personality than any other president and was the one who made this country prosper at a rate never seen before. during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences, and russia became no longer a major concern to us. reagan was a good president.



are muslims that took their weapons to defend their countries included in your "extremists" definition? cause most of the guys that got killed by the US troops only did what i just said.

no they are not. those are iraqis. the extremists are the ones ramming planes into our buildings. the ones blowing up vans of explosives in populated areas. and your notion that we kill thousands of innocents is an exageration. yes people have died in the hands of the US troops, but the majority have died from suicide bombings and the like, caused by extremist muslims.


whats the right thing to do? hmmm, let me guess. Fighting and taking over other countries to give privileges (?) to people from the country of which you come from (not specifically about you, talking about anyone). Being a good person requires of him to be forgiving, avoid violence in most cases (defense doesnt count as a violent act) and stuff like that. I like the Christian ethics alot, i just dont think the world is ready for them yet. (Just like communism).[quote]

i agree with you a bit here, except for your view on things. i think it is noble to free people, but wrong to do so with force. but in those situations, diplomacy was tried, and war was the last resort. by your reasoning the south had every right to keep slaves and the North should not have declared war. after all, the south was just defending itself. about christian ethics, i agree with most too, jews make more sense to me. communism will never be an existance, because a person gets a feeling of entitlement. the same feeling when you marry or have kids. people get attached to things, and communism works against that. it is a dream. i dont like john lennon, but i will quote his song. "imagine" he says. and that is all you can do, since it is just a dream. as far as i can see, communism has failed everywhere it has been attempted. democracy has thrived every time it started, but was corrupted from the inside such as the greeks. the US has been a big contributer of the world, and democracy seems to be working where it is, dont you think??


[quote]why do i have the feeling that US citizens also like many of the stuff that come outside the US too (chinese restaurants for example - btw, the only US food i know of is junk food). That doesnt prove that any country is any good or better.

i wasnt making a reference about our superiority, but about our popularity. the chinese love us. and as you said, we love the chinese. i was merely trying to say that the US is not hated in the majority of the world (which is by the way, chinese since they make one of the biggest population next to india, which also loves us)


without my country the world would be worse off i wouldnt be too sure about that, but its mere speculation since your country is here and i think its gonna be here for quite sometime.

your right, i have now way to measure that. but since a lot of countries do business with us, it is only fair to assume that we are a huge piece of the world market.



common sense mate. Common sense. Try to look the other way around too!

i agree with you man. and i do sometimes fail to grasp the complete picture, but i do try, and i would ask you to do the same, since you have such a burning hate towards conservatism. just use logic, not emotion. emotion is what gets people to do stupid things, and is not a quality that true leaders and philosophers have.

[MobbinAllDay]

Wow this thread sure did blow up form just a simple topic

[FingolfinGR]

during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences

same happened during Hittlers presidency in Germany btw.


i think it is noble to free people, but wrong to do so with force.

bingo!


communism will never be an existance, because a person gets a feeling of entitlement.

good to know u think about it the same way. Theres nothing wrong about communism itself. Just about the people that try to make it happen - they're just not ready for it.


democracy has thrived every time it started, but was corrupted from the inside such as the greeks.

actually it was imperialism that sort of corrupted the way things worked in ancient Greece. I agree a bit more with the "oligarchy" as it was in Sparta - where people had the right to vote too and were equal with each other - women were also way more respected than in Athens. But the thing is that they were different times. The modern democracy is way less a democracy than it was when it first started (and its also not hard to see why, back then it was only cities, now there are millions in the same country).

Best thing for the democracy to work would be independent media. By this i mean that propaganda from one or the other side shouldnt exist and journalists should do what they have to: be objective and show whats really going on. As long as both sides have propaganda (i'd be a fool to think otherwise) it wont work that well.

i do sometimes fail to grasp the complete picture, but i do try

thats why i bother argueing with u ;)

since you have such a burning hate towards conservatism

to that ur wrong. I dont hate any ideas besides the ones that are proven to be worth hating (neo-nazism etc). I always try to see the whole picture and many times i agreed with u, as you should remember :)

[Carloseus]

well im happy we agree on stuff, because it doesnt seem so much sometimes, especially when i have you, gex, and mutton chops on me. lol. 1 vs 3. i must be doing a good job if i have kept my ground this long.

same happened during Hittlers presidency in Germany btw.

unfortunately hitler was evil. he was the best leader in the world, that ever existed, and he used it for evil. what a shame. he brought a country out of depression and turned it into a world power, that is what i like about the germans. they are motivated yo.

bingo!

yes, i do think its wrong to do it by force, but this is a matter of the greater good. iraqis wanted to be freed, and the few that didnt were in power. so in this way we didnt harm the many for the few, we actually did it for their freedom. if they didnt want us there they wouldnt be establishing democracy there.

good to know u think about it the same way. Theres nothing wrong about communism itself. Just about the people that try to make it happen - they're just not ready for it.

good, now say the whole thing: communism can never exist. you can do it, cmon!!


thats why i bother argueing with u ;)[quote]

likewise


[quote]to that ur wrong. I dont hate any ideas besides the ones that are proven to be worth hating (neo-nazism etc). I always try to see the whole picture and many times i agreed with u, as you should remember :)

then im sorry, but your views seem to extend that feeling of negativity towards conservatism and its figures, such as our good president Ronald Reagan.

[Warlord55]

omg are you guys stupid, it was KYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!




but actually i dont no what to believe

[muttonchops]

I haven't read every reply in here, but I would like to reply to whoever said that there is a lot of hate towards America in Iraq right now.
You need to stop watching the news and talk to some real people. Real soldiers who were really there. Its a COMPLETELY different story than what we see on the news and read in the paper.

You're wrong entirely. If you're looking to "expose the reality" of something, you're picking the wrong subjects, because it's a widely known fact that America is for the most part, hated by countries in the Middle East. Also, not many countries in Africa and South America like us either. And there are quite a few leaders of countries in Europe that have declared (meager) support for the U.S., however, the majority of people in those countries hate us.

Its also a plain fact that Saddam was set there and supported by former US governments. You are quite right. In the early 1960s the CIA began supporting the Ba'ath party, among other parties in Iraq in order to contend with the then current leader of Iraq, Abdul Karim Qassim, whom the CIA believed to be Communist. In 1963, the Ba'athists overthrow Qassim in a coup and became the ruling party of Iraq. Saddam was only a deputy to the president until 1979, when he became the president. One of his primary goals was to seize as much oil as possible. He seized as much of international oil sources as possible in 1972 a year later, gas prices rose dramatically because of the 1973 Energy Crisis.

In order to attain power and to assure his succession, he proclaimed all his percieved potential opponents as traitors and spies and they were arrested and 22 of them were executed.

The CIA allowed him to commit many of the atrocities that he had dealt simply for the reason that he said he believed in Capitalism and it was one less country that they had to worry about the spread of Communism for.

In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait in order to double the percentage of crude oil that they had. The international community frowned upon this because, since Kuwait and Iraq held such a large percentage of the world's oil, they feared that the conflict would send the world economy into turmoil. Hence, was the only reason Saddam was stopped from invading Kuwait.

Tensions have remained high, from then up until this new Iraq War, especially with the alleged attempted assassination of Bush Sr. on a trip to Kuwait. Which seems to be the of the main reasons why Iraq seemed to get Bush Jr.'s panties in a wad.

There's also a civil war far more devastating than the bombing there No civil war yet. However, you are right that it will be a long road before this war is over. The government that the U.S. put in place over there is a piece of shit and many of the elected officials have been assassinated.

if you hold the american leaders responsible for casualties in other countries, you must be willing to accept that leaders in other countries are responsible for casualties too. the reason i say this, is because using your reasoning would mean that lincoln was responsible for the millions of americans killed during the civil war. That brings up another good point. Many countries such as Britain, Spain, and not anymore, but still valid, France have or had given us troops for the campaign in Iraq. They weren't usually under their own flags. They were under American flags and it is safe to assume that they were responsible for a percentage of the casualties. I'd put it at 10ish%.

and you feel that the US is not a good superpower huh?? who would you like to be a superpower?? who would do a better job?? Who cares who can do a better job? Any country that has power over another country will abuse that power in some fashion. It's simply human.

2. yes we did screw up, but isnt that our responsibility? to fix our problem?? It's our responsibility, but their problem. We fucked their shit up.

just think of life today, if america had kept the idea of isolationalism in WWII
the entire world praising the Reich Fuhrer Most likely not, because at some point or another Germany would have run out of steam and more countries would have entered the war.

If only America had returned to being isolationist after the war. Prior to WWII, we were in an economic and technological boom.

Ok, I've only read the first few posts that were made to mine but it seems that the whole fucking bullshit argument ''USA saved everyone in the world's asses during WWII" seems to be the backup plan cos they don't want to discuss the validity of the Iraqi war anymore. I wonder why. Wow that's bullshit. I gave you a huge lecture on why it was a valid war. The problem is that you fail to recognize that it wasn't the war that was essentially bad, but it was the procedure used. Yes, it was the right thing to do to kick Saddam's ass, however, it was not right to basically sit on Iraq and make big sloppy shit all over it.

America only put their asses out when they were attacked. Japan, by the way, made you their bitches. Yes...I distinctly remember a picture of two Japanese cities...in...flames? No, I think those are just fireworks cuz they kicked our ass, right? Here's what I'm seeing:
http://bh.knu.ac.kr/%7Esdsong/images/Atomic%20Bomb.gif

Just like the Vietnamese. Okay, now we are talking about a war where America was fighting against not only Vietnam, but two of the largest post-WWII communist superpowers, Russia and China. But if you just want to talk about Vietnam and U.S.A lets compare casualties:

U.S.A:
dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303

Vietnam:
dead: 1,100,000
wounded: 600,000

Sounds like the Vietnamese soldiers got raped.

But besides that, the Vietnam was more of a proxy war, among many other proxy wars between the US and the USSR in order to prevent direct conflict, possibly leading to global nuclear warfare. So America might have lost at Vietnam, but the US still won the arms race, ultimately, after the USSR collapsed.

No doubt that Britian, just like any other country has sent many of it's children out to die, tragically. But the difference is that we don't look at WW2 as a glorious event. It was a fucking horrific one, not one that should be gloated about. It's not a matter of "gloating", as we consider events such as D-Day symbols of patriotism. If you go to any WWII memorials in America, I can guarantee you that none of them say anything along the lines of, "Yay! We saved Britain and kicked Germany's ass!"

Muttonchops, my source is that: I have lost count of the amount of times that I have heard a Yank (because once an American becomes a patriotic extremist, he becomes simply a Yank) say "well, our soldiors have died for our freedom of speech so I'ma say what I like".. Not many of 'em really. They're the ignorant ones. Although many can say that it is a war to spread Democracy, which was technically already in Iraq, the main purpose of the war was to stop a dictator.

What most people dont get in here is that what the US did to Iraq was INVASION. Is that legal? NO. period. end of story. The rest is just excuses. Technically, there is not such thing as international law, so you can't call it illegal. And the UN isn't going to do anything and wouldn't do anything anyways. The UN is a broken tool. Take the genocide in Rwanda, for example. The UN could do nothing to stop it, even though they had troops there, because they couldn't "prove" it. Despite the fact that there were troops there who saw it. Also, corraborating stories from hundreds of people, that managed to escape.

But the truth is that you have been in Iraq for so goddamn long that you would not know any more than your presidenct would how the country would be if you left it alone for a year or 2. I know how the country would be if we left it alone for a year or two. Muslim extremist groups would fight over control of the country and dismantle anything that the U.S. puts in place.

I'm not saying ANY country is right in being there, but it seems that the only people to ever defend their government's involvment in any war is Americans. Maybe it's because we're more patriotic than other countries are? Perhaps it's cuz we are willing to say that we support our government? Let's not forget that Britain is STILL involved as well.

has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government? No, it's obvious that America has sponsored dictatorships, simply because they said they were capitalist. We're still dealing with remnants of the cold war.

isnt michael moore a radical?? doesnt he say a bunch of other crap that isnt real?? 99% of what he says is true, although he does stretch details and mince words.

Now, what has America given the world that can really be compared?

Cars, internet, foreign aid, the refridgerator, the telephone, for starters. That's just off the top of my head.

i think that you should even go so far as to cut yourself away from everything we produce, export, or influence. Well...technically, America doesn't really export much anymore. In fact, we destroy most of our excess resources, in order to maintain certain market prices. Ever wonder why produce prices don't fluctuate by much? It's because farmers are paid not to grow food. We destroy enough wheat in this country to feed the world multiple times every year. But such is the way of capitalism.

I'm English. Tool. Ouch, I have to say this, Carloseus, but can I call you toast? Cuz you got bbuuuurrrrrrnnnned.

I do know decent Americans that are open-minded, enjoy hearing what other people have to say about their country, and say they never though of it like that. There are people like that in all countries. Then, there are also people who are close-minded retards who aren't willing to accept other people's perspectives. *cough* Bush *cough*

I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).There are refugees for everything. But when it's televised, that sure does pull out that sympathy factor.

the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.Actually, Clinton would have caught Bin Laden, however, the CIA and Congress (both held by Republicans who want to stop Clinton so that they can call him on his "inaction" later) would not authorize basing rights in Afghanistan, which basically meant he would have to deploy by night. Bush just tossed out all of Clintons battle plans and intel and ignored the whole terror issue for the 8 months leading up to 9/11.

where is the proof that bush is profiting from the war??Oil fields in Iraq were seized by American troops and are now property of Halliburton, which is owned by Dick Cheney. Also, most of the profits earned didn't go to line Bush's pockets, but to oil and other corporations who back him.

just use logic, not emotion. emotion is what gets people to do stupid things, and is not a quality that true leaders and philosophers have.Amen! Brotha!

and dont call reagan stupid please, because he had the best personality than any other president and was the one who made this country prosper at a rate never seen before.Judging a president solely on personality is bullshit. Reagan was an asshole. But he sure did appeal to the rich, as most republicans do. And the poverty rate went up 5 percent from the time he went in to the time when he left office.

during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences, and russia became no longer a major concern to us. reagan was a good president.Yes, unemployment did drop...by 2.1%, which is good. And yes, illiteracy did drop as well. But he raised national debt by 2.5 trillion dollars, simply spent on overkill on weapons since it was evident at the time that the Soviet Russia could not keep up. And there was 1 trillion dollar debt leftover from wars all the way back to the American Revolution. That's a ridiculously large amount of money. Also, he shut down hundreds of mental hospitals, which spiked unemployment and crime rates. Congress had to pass laws in order to STOP him from closing more mental health facilities. Yes it was that bad.

[darkjay]

have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).


if u was in iraq would u speak out against saddam??? unless you value your life i dont think u would

didnt they show the statue of saddam being topple in baghdad?? or was that just in america???
oo ya we just go in thier guns blazing killing everyone... hmm
http://www.family-learning.org.uk/durhamcc/pressrel.nsf/aaa82d6ca53cefdd80256eba003a6bed/692a69f8e3020a308025708b0040639d/$FILE/Andrew%20with%20children%20in%20Iraq.jpg
wow... its a quote fest lol

[Mr.Willie]

Okay, let me just mention a few things...

British government wanted to go to war. Britain didn't. I didn't want a war, my friends didnt want a war, the 60%+ people of Britain, didn't want to go to war, and didn't want to get involved. But Blair went ahead anyway. That is a fact, our government didn't listen to the majority and went ahead and invaded anyway.

I will only believe that the war was worthit when every foreign force pulls out of Iraq and Iraq lives on, as a democratic nation. I doubt that will happen.

In history, the only way people have gotten "freedom" is by rising against their current government. America did it with us (the British), Britain did it with the Romans, as with every other country in their empire, British commonwealth countries did it, and Taiwan is doing it right now too!

Now so far, that freedom, that oh-so-many people fought for has lasted... but it is very noticable that it is starting to waver. England and possibly the UK has been deemed a "Survaillence State", the US is increasingly being called a "Police State".

Now on to countries that hate you. I think you'll find that a lot of people DO hate you. Their governments may love you, but the people realy DO have something against you. I am really against America going to war in Iraq, and too many people in your country who think that just because the enemy has a higher casualty count, then America is winning. Wrong. In Vietnam it was a 16:1 ratio of American casualties to Vietnamese casualties. Most of the casualties of the Vietnam conflict were South Vietnamese, who were your "allies". And don't forget about all those "blind-bombings", "daisy-cuttings" and agent-orange topped off with a bit of napalm runs America undertook. How many civillian casualties is that?

I believe, that America is a close-minded nation. I think that the figures of only 20% of you have a passport help that theory. And I believe that your actions and attitudes towards the world or individual countries does certainly not help. I think that the world is going into a decline of freedom an increase of 'extremist' opinions, and I think America's actions and attitude is fueling that. And it's very apparent.

[Gex]

The thing is, much as there are inarguable reasons why the US isn't a great country, over-patriotic and under-thinking dickheads will defend it like the poor brainwashed fuckwits have been raised to.

Hell, SOMEONE has to defend America's reputation, and argue it's good points, right? It SURE as shit ain't going to be anyone other than an American. What does that say about the idea that the world holds of America?

[FingolfinGR]

yes, i do think its wrong to do it by force, but this is a matter of the greater good. iraqis wanted to be freed, and the few that didnt were in power. so in this way we didnt harm the many for the few, we actually did it for their freedom. if they didnt want us there they wouldnt be establishing democracy there.

there's still no freedom there. Since your forces are there and the war is far from over there cant be a free Iraq. Not just the US forces, English, French etc too. The right decisions arent made to help them out there.


then im sorry, but your views seem to extend that feeling of negativity towards conservatism and its figures, such as our good president Ronald Reagan.

especially about Reagan i read a whole book. I dont make things up. What i'm saying is honestly what i think after reading some stuff about him from a very valid greek journalist. He only became famous because he accused people of being communists, even if they were or they werent.


good, now say the whole thing: communism can never exist. you can do it, cmon!!


communism can exist, but not now. When the world is ready for equality it the revolution will take place. But not now or anytime soon.


In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait in order to double the percentage of crude oil that they had. The international community frowned upon this because, since Kuwait and Iraq held such a large percentage of the world's oil, they feared that the conflict would send the world economy into turmoil. Hence, was the only reason Saddam was stopped from invading Kuwait.

the US provided with weapons both Iraq and Kuwait at this point.


That brings up another good point. Many countries such as Britain, Spain, and not anymore, but still valid, France have or had given us troops for the campaign in Iraq. They weren't usually under their own flags. They were under American flags and it is safe to assume that they were responsible for a percentage of the casualties. I'd put it at 10ish%.

agreed.


Yes...I distinctly remember a picture of two Japanese cities...in...flames? No, I think those are just fireworks cuz they kicked our ass, right?

am i the only one that thinks that was the biggest war crime in modern history? Condemning not just the soldiers but the innocent citizens plus generations to come isnt something to be proud of.


U.S.A:
dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303

Vietnam:
dead: 1,100,000
wounded: 600,000

Sounds like the Vietnamese soldiers got raped.


point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day. And one more thing. The US were never attacked by another country (after Pearl Harbor) and never fought on their own grounds. In most cases they were the attackers.


Although many can say that it is a war to spread Democracy, which was technically already in Iraq, the main purpose of the war was to stop a dictator.

ur wrong about that. The main reason to attack Iraq (as stated by G. Bush Jr.) was "to continue the war against terrorism" and "stop Saddam because he has weapons of mass destruction and is a threat to the whole world". Oh, he also said "he tried to kill my father". Well from these 3 points only the last is valid and it shouldnt bring a whole nation to war, dont you think?


Cars

first car was invented by the german Daymler (or how hes called). Right after came Ford i think.


didnt they show the statue of saddam being topple in baghdad?? or was that just in america???
oo ya we just go in thier guns blazing killing everyone... hmm


besides pictures like that (that i've seen too), i've seen whole cars of dead children from the bombings. Have u? No? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11, u'll see them moving too...

[muttonchops]

I will only believe that the war was worthit when every foreign force pulls out of Iraq and Iraq lives on, as a democratic nation.

Looks like we know you were supporting the idea of leaving a genocidal dictator alone.

Their governments may love you, but the people realy DO have something against you. It's because I'm so damned sexy.

Haha, but seriously. That's fine, countries can hate us, but Americans hate a lot of other countries. For one, I, in particular, hate Britain (government specifically). The British has had a long history of this "shoot first, ask questions later" strategy. They are responsible for the majority of world-wide problems in this country. Middle East Crisis, Britain's fault, since they were basically leading all nine Crusades there, except for the first one, which they were still involved in. They are responsible for the Pakistan/India conflict, just because they wanted freedom and didn't want to leave without making them suffer. They are responsible for Israel/Palestine, since they are the ones that basically shoved all the Euro-Jews there after WWII, just because they didn't want them in Europe. So they stuck 'em in a place they didn't give a shit about. The Middle East. South Africa? Them. Britain has done far worse things than America has ever done.

I also hate France, which has a long history of copping out of wars. WWII for example, the country basically bent over for Germany. And here is a breif summary of some of the wars they have been in. Try looking up "French Military Victories" on Google and pressing, Im Feeling Lucky.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

And there is a huge number of people that would agree with me.

Wrong. In Vietnam it was a 16:1 ratio of American casualties to Vietnamese casualties. Oh? So I guess Wikipedia is wrong then. As I took my casualty count from there.

I think that the figures of only 20% of you have a passport help that theory. That doesn't mean we're close-minded. It means we don't travel, asshole.

And I believe that your actions and attitudes towards the world or individual countries does certainly not help. I think that the world is going into a decline of freedom an increase of 'extremist' opinions, and I think America's actions and attitude is fueling that. And it's very apparent.There will always be many injustices in the world. And there will always be a huge number of people that lack freedom. Some could think of it as a balance of nature.

The thing is, much as there are inarguable reasons why the US isn't a great country, over-patriotic and under-thinking dickheads will defend it like the poor brainwashed fuckwits have been raised to.I guess I'm the only poor brainwashed fuckwit that is actually using legitimate sources in this argument. How the hell does patriotism make us a bad country. Just because many of us tend to like our government doesn't make us any more wrong (for the record, I hate Bush). And I must be under-thinking, as it doesn't take much thought to show how wrong you are.

Hell, SOMEONE has to defend America's reputation, and argue it's good points, right?And alone, that someone has managed to bring up more legitimate points with credible sources than any nay-sayers here.

It SURE as shit ain't going to be anyone other than an American.Japan is still dickriding us. That's why we're the first country besides Japan to get the new Nintendos and Playstations. Also, Tony Blair is buffing us.

I gave several extended arguments that have disproved the majority of points that have been brought up against America and you guys seem to act all circumloquacious about it, just to avoid the fact that I just proved that you were wrong.

point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day.And if that is the number of how many people we killed as opposed to how many they killed? That should say something about how much stronger this country is.

first car was invented by the german Daymler (or how hes called). Right after came Ford i think.I stand corrected for once. The first car was invented by Karl Benz in Germany.

besides pictures like that (that i've seen too), i've seen whole cars of dead children from the bombings. Have u? No? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11, u'll see them moving too...Watch the attack on World Trade Centers, you'll see thousands of people dying. And quite a few people jumping out of the towers in order to escape the turmoil. You'll also see even more people running in terror.

ur wrong about that. The main reason to attack Iraq (as stated by G. Bush Jr.) was "to continue the war against terrorism" and "stop Saddam because he has weapons of mass destruction and is a threat to the whole world". Oh, he also said "he tried to kill my father". Well from these 3 points only the last is valid and it shouldnt bring a whole nation to war, dont you think?I knew he was full of shit after he made those statements from the start. However, I agreed with the war on a different basis. Regardless of whether or not he had the bomb, he was a dictator who killed his own people and needed to be removed. You cannot expect an idiot like Bush to give you the real reasons for a war. But in response to your claiming that I am wrong, he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy. Well, if another country tries to assassinate the leader of another country, that sounds like war to me.

communism can exist, but not now. When the world is ready for equality it the revolution will take place. But not now or anytime soon.Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.

am i the only one that thinks that was the biggest war crime in modern history? Condemning not just the soldiers but the innocent citizens plus generations to come isnt something to be proud of.Three reasons as to why we got away with it:

-Baton Death March
-pre-emptive attack on Pearl Harbor. Basically, Germany told Japan to keep America from entering the war in Europe. Unbeknownst to both of them that not only could America manage a war on two fronts, but virtually dominated, defeated the naval superpower of the world, Japan, as well as Germany.
-Japan committed a genocide ranging from 6 million to 10 million people, over half of them being from countries such as China, the Phillipines, Korean, Indonesia and Indochina. The rest were of Japanese people. And that's just inbetween 1937 and 1945. Japan had a secret service, basically the same as the Gestapo, called the Kempeitai, which oversaw the genocides. Most notably of which was the Rape of Nanking. Look it up.

the US provided with weapons both Iraq and Kuwait at this point.Bush Sr. Another oil tycoon. Also, as director of the CIA, he was responsible for the orders given to purge entire villages in countries such as Taiwan, Vietnam and Korea.

[FingolfinGR]

Looks like we know you were supporting the idea of leaving a genocidal dictator alone.


he still has half Iraq on his side. I dont say hes any good, dont get me wrong. What i'm saying is that the way the situation was handled caused more casualties than it would with a more delicate approach (could be stealth assasination or something like it - same with Bin Laden, but it wouldnt suit Bush to see him dead)


he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy.

If its like "Fighting for Peace" then it doesnt make sense to me. Its the same as "Fucking for Virginity". Forcing freedom (?) cant be done. Our freedom we take for ourselves. You from the english, we from the Turks etc.


Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.

wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.


You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).


Watch the attack on World Trade Centers, you'll see thousands of people dying. And quite a few people jumping out of the towers in order to escape the turmoil. You'll also see even more people running in terror.


I actually did. But if u check the numbers of how many innocent died of US bombings u'll notice they're way, way more than that. This doesnt justify it ofc, its all innocent people. But think of other people in the Middle-East (Syria and Iran atm) that think/know they might be the next to be bombed...
Thats at least the same terror to my eyes.


btw, i really like such intelligent conversations without insults. We all learn something that way.

[Carloseus]

point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day. And one more thing. The US were never attacked by another country (after Pearl Harbor) and never fought on their own grounds. In most cases they were the attackers.[quote]

yes, but that was because of people wishing for "peace". they wanted to "stop the violence and bloodshed" but right after we pulled out what happened?? thousands of innocent vietnamese were savagely slaughtered. the same will happen in iraq if we repeat the same mistake. as for being attacked, no we havent been attacked my a country, but by an idea. an idea made by radical muslims.


It's because I'm so damned sexy.

Haha, but seriously. That's fine, countries can hate us, but Americans hate a lot of other countries. For one, I, in particular, hate Britain (government specifically). The British has had a long history of this "shoot first, ask questions later" strategy. They are responsible for the majority of world-wide problems in this country. Middle East Crisis, Britain's fault, since they were basically leading all nine Crusades there, except for the first one, which they were still involved in. They are responsible for the Pakistan/India conflict, just because they wanted freedom and didn't want to leave without making them suffer. They are responsible for Israel/Palestine, since they are the ones that basically shoved all the Euro-Jews there after WWII, just because they didn't want them in Europe. So they stuck 'em in a place they didn't give a shit about. The Middle East. South Africa? Them. Britain has done far worse things than America has ever done.

I also hate France, which has a long history of copping out of wars. WWII for example, the country basically bent over for Germany. And here is a breif summary of some of the wars they have been in. Try looking up "French Military Victories" on Google and pressing, Im Feeling Lucky.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

And there is a huge number of people that would agree with me.

woot another french hater!!! but i do think we took a lot of our stuff from britain, and i dont necessarily hate them, i just prefer the good ol' US. good points muttonchops.


And alone, that someone has managed to bring up more legitimate points with credible sources than any nay-sayers here.

good, i guess i have reinforcements. am i that alone person??



knew he was full of shit after he made those statements from the start. However, I agreed with the war on a different basis. Regardless of whether or not he had the bomb, he was a dictator who killed his own people and needed to be removed. You cannot expect an idiot like Bush to give you the real reasons for a war. But in response to your claiming that I am wrong, he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy. Well, if another country tries to assassinate the leader of another country, that sounds like war to me.

i could not have said it better. amen.


Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.

you forgot china.


Three reasons as to why we got away with it:

-Baton Death March
-pre-emptive attack on Pearl Harbor. Basically, Germany told Japan to keep America from entering the war in Europe. Unbeknownst to both of them that not only could America manage a war on two fronts, but virtually dominated, defeated the naval superpower of the world, Japan, as well as Germany.
-Japan committed a genocide ranging from 6 million to 10 million people, over half of them being from countries such as China, the Phillipines, Korean, Indonesia and Indochina. The rest were of Japanese people. And that's just inbetween 1937 and 1945. Japan had a secret service, basically the same as the Gestapo, called the Kempeitai, which oversaw the genocides. Most notably of which was the Rape of Nanking. Look it up.


i consider 9-11 a war crime as well.

wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.


You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).

im sorry, but it is just a dream. there will always people that think of themselves and their family. everyone wants whats best for their family, and there are also those that will do nothing and still expect a benefit. refer to welfare.

no the nukes in japan were justified, no where did it say one country couldnt use nukes on the other. if germany or japan had a nuke it would have been employed immediately and efficiently. however they didnt, so the japanese dropped sever thousand bombs instead. and we also did it there because we knew that the japs would never surrender. that is why they were blowing up ships with suicide bombers.


wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.


You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).

[quote]I actually did. But if u check the numbers of how many innocent died of US bombings u'll notice they're way, way more than that. This doesnt justify it ofc, its all innocent people. But think of other people in the Middle-East (Syria and Iran atm) that think/know they might be the next to be bombed...
Thats at least the same terror to my eyes.

no, its not. its more terrifying seeing a plane slamming into a building and seeing people jumping out of windows from the tall building just to end their lives quicker. then the building collapsing. then having to look through the remains for your family or freinds, or fellow country men. i think that mindset change itself was devastating. knowing that your country was attacked out of the blue to cause such damage to the city of the world is just terrifying, and it shook not only the whole US, but many other countries. it made everone think, "wow. if that happened to them, what makes us safe??" that is why i think your wrong there



btw, i really like such intelligent conversations without insults. We all learn something that way.

i do too, thats why im still here.

[FingolfinGR]

good, i guess i have reinforcements. am i that alone person??


i think he talks about himself.


i could not have said it better. amen

so you know that Bush is full of shit too?


i consider 9-11 a war crime as well.

War crime is a crime to be commited during a war or that would cause one (talking about nations). What happened there was an attack by a dozen terrorists (that kind of suited the Bush administration) towards a nation. It is indeed a big crime, but not a war crime.


no, its not. its more terrifying seeing a plane slamming into a building and seeing people jumping out of windows from the tall building just to end their lives quicker. then the building collapsing. then having to look through the remains for your family or freinds, or fellow country men. i think that mindset change itself was devastating. knowing that your country was attacked out of the blue to cause such damage to the city of the world is just terrifying, and it shook not only the whole US, but many other countries. it made everone think, "wow. if that happened to them, what makes us safe??" that is why i think your wrong there


where do you think people in these countries look for the remains of their family and friends after the bombings? Do you think they're sure to have a future? I dont think so. Its exactly the same thing. Just when a superpower does it, none can oppose anything against it. This doesnt make it right, or easier to be accepted. Thats exactly why most of the world thought of 9/11 as a retaliation and said "at last". After so much pain caused by the US (even to my very neighbor country, Yugoslavia - just to test some of the newly developed weapons) it somehow felt like the US got a taste of their own medicine.
Again, dont take this wrong. I'm totally against what happened there. But i'm totally against most things the US did outside their own country. (u can say except WW2 maybe when we saw some good things too).

[darkjay]

hmm i guess america cant do anything good??

the nukes killed 200,000 people
option b was to invade, that would have cost an estimated 1,000,000 us lives and on top of that the lives of millions of japanese
japan was 7 days from making a nuclear bomb when they surrenders... if they had made one i am quite sure that they would have used it

right now they have declared a Jihad on us, thus making it a state of war and also a war crime

[FingolfinGR]

option b was to invade, that would have cost an estimated 1,000,000 us lives and on top of that the lives of millions of japanese

maybe, but where's the courage, and the honor in what you did? Killing innocent citizens and the next generations was sure the best thing to know /applaud

if they had made one i am quite sure that they would have used it
japan was 7 days from making a nuclear bomb when they surrenders...

i havent seen any proof of that. If its like the weapons of mass destruction Iraq has, then i can tell from now...

if they had made one i am quite sure that they would have used it


cant be sure about something that never happened. They didnt have a nuclear weapon back then. You did. And used it too.


right now they have declared a Jihad on us, thus making it a state of war and also a war crime

who is "they"? The muslims? Do you intend to get them all killed? Cause most dont give a shit about what you, anyway. The ones that are threatened by you are the ones that "could" act, but its not their fault. Would you sit back if someone threatened you? No.

[darkjay]

where is the honor in strapping a bomb to yourself and killing children?? or walking into a church and blowing it up? or howabout taking a military jet intending not to fight but to fly it into a boat??
it wasnt about honor or courage it was about saving millions of lives

how hard is it to hide a nuke in a desert the size of california??
something that is 48 square feet in a place that is over 165,000 square miles

wow we go from me stating that it is a state of war to you asking if we should kill them all???

[Carloseus]

i agree with darkjay. we at least ended the war, and the japs were using every dirty tactic to beat us, i will remind you about pearl harbor. the nuke was fair game in the rules of war. if you have a strong weapon and are at war, then use it. it would have been much different if we had dropped it on them when they had done nothing to us.



[quote]Thats exactly why most of the world thought of 9/11 as a retaliation and said "at last". After so much pain caused by the US (even to my very neighbor country, Yugoslavia - just to test some of the newly developed weapons) it somehow felt like the US got a taste of their own medicine[quote]

if this is true, then i guess we are in deep shit. to know that the world is against us and saw 9-11 as a win for them, i think that itself shows how many countries we should invade. after all, if you have countries against you, what else should a superpower do other than invade?? that is the reason you think we use. but no, we still have a major impact on the economy of europe, including sweden and your freinds the yugoslavians.

ill start another topic so we can merge it with current topics of discussion

i think that we should have israel invade iran. after all, everyday iran gets closer to making nukes and then its lights out for the jewish nation.

[PhrozenDragon]

There are no rules in war, there is no honor in war, and their is no righteous war. War is alway terrible, it is alway bad, but sometimes it is necessary to prevent something worse. Rules cannot be abided. If you have a weapon that can end a war, use it (nukes). Just be ready to face the repercussions of you r actions afterwards.

Suicide bombers are employed because it is effective. Because of the wests morale, there is little a nation can do against the threat without intruding on peoples freedom and security. No one is left for interrogation, it can't be detected, it is hard to prevent, it creates terror and fear, and it is cheap. What more can a terror leader ask for?

[darkjay]

bigger bombs?? j/k

There are no rules in war, there is no honor in war, and their is no righteous war. War is alway terrible, it is alway bad, but sometimes it is necessary to prevent something worse. Rules cannot be abided. If you have a weapon that can end a war, use it (nukes). Just be ready to face the repercussions of you r actions afterwards.
well said

[Jarhead89]

Im not even american and i felt the blow of 9/11
It was indeed the work of terrorists...although some of the tv shows/videos/pictures i have seen over the years make me think there might be more to it than the government/media wish to tell us. I have no doubt it was the work of terrorists, but there is more to it than 'planes were hijacked and flown into the world trade centres'.

[Gex]

Yeah, muttonchops, you proved all the nay-sayers wrong. Using 'proper sources' like Wikipedia. I'm sure you converted us all. Really.

Panic over, go back to bed America, muttonchops has it all under control. No one has a single valid argument against your government and their tactics of terrorism, invasion, nuking, bombing children + hospitals, demanding your right to freedom of speech and not liking anyone else's, how America invented..hell..most things, apparently. How they lost in Vietnam but that was ok because they got a bigger body count (so they really proved their point there), well, it's all ok as long as mr muttonchops is there to defend it all. How it was ok when they nuked Japan, killing untold amounts of civilians (when the Japs attacked..wait for it.. a NAVY base).
Oh, and about that; if the Americans had thought of it first, it would have been a good move. Pre-emptive strike, just like the nuke argument- if you've got it, use it. But because it was done against the Americans, it was a dirty war crime. But your mind-set is not hypocritical whatsoever.

Erm.. I almost don't want to include this picture, but it pretty much sums up the pro-Americanism going on here.

http://www.neatorama.com/images/2006-02/get-a-brain-morans.jpg

[Jarhead89]

Yeah, muttonchops, you proved all the nay-sayers wrong. Using 'proper sources' like Wikipedia. I'm sure you converted us all. Really.

Panic over, go back to bed America, muttonchops has it all under control. No one has a single valid argument against your government and their tactics of terrorism, invasion, nuking, bombing children + hospitals, demanding your right to freedom of speech and not liking anyone else's, how America invented..hell..most things, apparently. How they lost in Vietnam but that was ok because they got a bigger body count (so they really proved their point there), well, it's all ok as long as mr muttonchops is there to defend it all. How it was ok when they nuked Japan, killing untold amounts of civilians (when the Japs attacked..wait for it.. a NAVY base).
Oh, and about that; if the Americans had thought of it first, it would have been a good move. Pre-emptive strike, just like the nuke argument- if you've got it, use it. But because it was done against the Americans, it was a dirty war crime. But your mind-set is not hypocritical whatsoever.

Erm.. I almost don't want to include this picture, but it pretty much sums up the pro-Americanism going on here.



...I think ill stay out of arguments like this from now on...

[Gex]

That was my idea, but if people want to quote what I'm saying then I'm going to defend it. As soon as people stop quoting what I say, or calling me out, then I'm done with it. It's like a trainwreck, I can't keep myself from looking >.<

[Jarhead89]

Hey mate i just meant that people obviously get revved up over shit like this and i dont need to get involved. Settle down...no offence was meant.

[Gex]

None was taken, sorry if it seemed so/seemed like I was trying to 'get back' at you or whatever

[Mr.Willie]

Well I think most of these statements prove that America is a close-minded, uneducated nation that has a fool in charge making it seem alright. Americans are shaded from the truth, just as every other country is, but because America is such a big influence on the world now, it just makes it seem more apparent to them.

America lost Vietnam. If you had won, then why did the North overthrow the South right after you pulled out all of a sudden? If you had killed all those soldiers then presumably they wouldn't have had the power to do that. And what about South Vietnamese casualties? dead: 230,000, wounded: 300,000. Also, there was the small matter of 2-4,000,000 civilians killed. Most of which were South Vietnamese, probably... There isn't many more ways to lose a war like you did in Vietnam.

And onto this Britian hating business. We have a history of bloodshed. A history, note the history. America, is still doing it. When was the last time we marched into a country to preach about God? We marched into Iraq because America started it, which the majority of the British people didn't want to do anyway... So when you say we have a history of violence, well guess what, so do you, and you're still doing it right now!

But I don't actually blame people... I blame religion. America is too religious, just like most other countries out there, especially middle-eastern countries, and they use those pathetic reasons for war, or just for a bit of killing.

The crusades would not have happened if Britain wasn't so religious. 9/11 wouldn't have happened if the hijackers weren't religious. 7/7 wouldn't have happened if Britain hadn't joined in the war in Iraq, the result of a religious act. There wouldn't be all that news of bombings in Israel if there was no religion. Come to think of it, there wouldn't be much conflict at all if there was no religion! Just territorial and power wars!

But of course, religion will always be there, because the pathetic mind of a human needs that sort of comfort and control when he asks the question "Why?".

[Jarhead89]

This is interesting, each country seems to have its own history of blooshed and its own involvement in wars of the world. Now ill tell you about mine.
Australia...it seems like we are put where we are needed, help where it is required, assist when it applies. We do not start war, we never have. We merely take part in it.

[Jarhead89]

Ah enough from me...i hate politics.

[Mr.Willie]

Lol, yea, touchy subject.

But the main thing with Australia is that it hasn't been around long, only since the 1700s. So you never know... but I hope you never have to start a war...

Come to think of it... the USA has only been round since the end of the 1700s... and look what they've done... hmmm...

[Murderface]

Yes, but our government is a joke, its an Fing joke!

[FingolfinGR]

alot stuff said and much more to say from my part. I dont have time atm, tho. I'll edit this post to say what i have to say later.

[Carloseus]

There are no rules in war, there is no honor in war, and their is no righteous war. War is alway terrible, it is alway bad, but sometimes it is necessary to prevent something worse. Rules cannot be abided. If you have a weapon that can end a war, use it (nukes). Just be ready to face the repercussions of you r actions afterwards.

there is honor in war, and there is righteous war. what do you think SICK is?? why does it appeal to us so much?? or how about WWII?? was it a honorable victory for the allies to defeat germany??

as for rules, no, there is always the evil side that will break the rules.



Panic over, go back to bed America, muttonchops has it all under control. No one has a single valid argument against your government and their tactics of terrorism, invasion, nuking, bombing children + hospitals, demanding your right to freedom of speech and not liking anyone else's, how America invented..hell..most things, apparently. How they lost in Vietnam but that was ok because they got a bigger body count (so they really proved their point there), well, it's all ok as long as mr muttonchops is there to defend it all. How it was ok when they nuked Japan, killing untold amounts of civilians (when the Japs attacked..wait for it.. a NAVY base).
Oh, and about that; if the Americans had thought of it first, it would have been a good move. Pre-emptive strike, just like the nuke argument- if you've got it, use it. But because it was done against the Americans, it was a dirty war crime. But your mind-set is not hypocritical whatsoever.

Erm.. I almost don't want to include this picture, but it pretty much sums up the pro-Americanism going on here.


wow. this is second to the biggest spew of vomit ive to witness. (first was michael moore) we were here, sitting by our beaches and suddenly thousands of jap plains came dropping more thousands of bombs. and if you remember right, pearl harbor was also a resort and a destination, not just a naval base. the fact that they declared war by suckerpunching us is what makes it a warcrime. we dropped bombs after we had declared war on them, so no, my mindset is not hypocritical, its just that you have such a twisted and screwed up logic you just try to find anything about the US and its people to throw them down.

the picture says nothing, you are taking a picture of some guy anywhere that could have easily dressed up and made those posters to make it seem as if he were real. its like me dressing up as a hippie, holding a sign for peace as i threw a flaming bottle into a building. (and yes, they did have their little riots) besides, that guy goes for the cardinals. he's not a real american.


That was my idea, but if people want to quote what I'm saying then I'm going to defend it. As soon as people stop quoting what I say, or calling me out, then I'm done with it. It's like a trainwreck, I can't keep myself from looking >.<

well, im gonna use my american ego and say this, i dont care. ill do what i want. ^^

seriously though. why would you post something in a debate if you dont want others to talk about it?? perhaps you are afraid of the weakness of the comment??


But of course, religion will always be there, because the pathetic mind of a human needs that sort of comfort and control when he asks the question "Why?".

true. but its up to that person to believe in what they want. freedom of religion, that is what my country's fathers constituted into it anyways. i personally dont believe in anything, and im quite happy. it just seems silly to me (sorry if i offend, just sharing views) to raising your hands into the sky and loving something, that you have never seen before. jesus was cool, but at least the jews thought that god was an angry guy. remember noah. the jews pretty much are good at everything they do because they believe that being remoarseful of your wrong doings at the end wont save you. i just do the right thing, follow my morals, and am virtuous just for the sake of wanting to. i dont need to feel someone breathing down my back if i screw up on something. there is so much to my ideas that i cant really explain all of them.

[muttonchops]

Come to think of it... the USA has only been round since the end of the 1700s... and look what they've done... hmmm...Are we talking about time since being a super power? During the time of Britain's supremacy, when were they not at war? They had control over a third of the entire world. And persecuting everyone there.

there is honor in war, and there is righteous war.Purely based on perspective. From an objective standpoint, there is no such thing as those things.

FUUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKK! I worked for like 30 minutes on a huge thing, and I accidentally lost my stuff! Damn you copy and paste! Forget it, I'll do it tomorrow.

Okay covering basic points:

-Can't call me a hypocrite just because you can't present a logical counter argument.
-Wikipedia is a completely reliable source. Take it up with them. If you don't like my information, look it up yourself and prove me wrong.
-Britain is 75% responsible for the Middle East Crisis. The other 25% belongs to all other European countries involved in the crusades. Therefore, it only makes sense to bring it up, otherwise, you guys would just continue saying that the problems in the Middle East are our fault. Britain raped the Middle East. Britain annexed the land of Israel for European Jews post-Holocaust, despite the fact they didn't have the authority to.
-Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on family visitation days, specifically targetting America, a neutral country, at a time when it was least defended, and killed hundreds, if not thousands of women and children.
-Germany was the one building the bomb. Roosevelt started the Manhattan Project in order to beat them to it, in order to prevent the Germans from dominating.
-Continuing the war with Japan without the atomic bomb would only result in more casualties. It was by far, the better decision.
-Where the hell is this argument heading? We went from whether or not 9/11 was a conspiracy, to the justification of the Iraq War, to America being the big bad bullies of the world.

[PhrozenDragon]

But I don't actually blame people... I blame religion. America is too religious, just like most other countries out there, especially middle-eastern countries, and they use those pathetic reasons for war, or just for a bit of killing.[quote]
Someone else that agrees with me. Religion is an excellent tool in forming powergful nations, in that it increases the holding together of the people. But you had better not get different religions in conflict, or there will be trouble.

[quote]there is honor in war, and there is righteous war. what do you think SICK is?? why does it appeal to us so much?? or how about WWII?? was it a honorable victory for the allies to defeat germany??

as for rules, no, there is always the evil side that will break the rules.
Oh please, leave the SICK preaching outside of real life matters.

And deafeating Germany was not honorable, it was an act of self-preservation. If germany had won, they would have been a threat to the US, and so that threat had to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pearl Harbor was not as horrible as people think. A couple of hundred died, most of them were crew members on the ships the Japanese sunk.

-Continuing the war with Japan without the atomic bomb would only result in more casualties. It was by far, the better decision.
Now that is certainly debatable.The aftershock of the nuclear radiation had created severe injuries and casualties in Japan long after the war.

[FingolfinGR]

there is always the evil side

the evil is never on only one side. It swaps sides pretty often, thats the main reason it cant be completely defeated.


we dropped bombs after we had declared war on them

not quite true. I dont remember the US declaring war to Yugoslavia. I also dont remember the US declaring war to Iraq before 2004 i think (or was it bit earlier?). The boycott (prolly misspelled again), and the bombings never stopped since 1991. Your point is pretty much full of shit. (no offense)


-Britain is 75% responsible for the Middle East Crisis. The other 25% belongs to all other European countries involved in the crusades. Therefore, it only makes sense to bring it up, otherwise, you guys would just continue saying that the problems in the Middle East are our fault. Britain raped the Middle East. Britain annexed the land of Israel for European Jews post-Holocaust, despite the fact they didn't have the authority to.

i cant fully get ur point here. We agree about what happened with Israel (no authority to take the land from the Palestenians - misspelled or not i dont really care), but it was the complete world society at this point, not just Britain. And the US are the strongest supporters of Israel ever since.

the Middle-East Crisis didnt start by the crusades (if thats what u ment). We're talking about modern times not Medieval.

-Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on family visitation days, specifically targetting America, a neutral country, at a time when it was least defended, and killed hundreds, if not thousands of women and children.

cant tell for sure. But what happened in Pearl Harbor certainly didnt affect future generations, as did the nuclear bombing.

-Germany was the one building the bomb. Roosevelt started the Manhattan Project in order to beat them to it, in order to prevent the Germans from dominating.

thats pretty much right. Its the only reason Einstein gave his knowledge and allowed to make that monstrous weapon. But gaining such power didnt change the way the US affects the world in a better way.


-Continuing the war with Japan without the atomic bomb would only result in more casualties. It was by far, the better decision.


this i take as:
"instead going there to fight with their military personell and loosing some of our soldiers, its better to bomb their soldiers and all of their civilians aswell to save our soldiers lives!"
good decision there, i'd be really proud...

Anyway, Carloseus, u keep saying u go for the facts, but u keep hating the facts Michael Moore provides. It doesnt sound that logical to me.

[darkjay]

2,390 people where killed, 1,100 on the USS Arizonaalone

cant tell for sure. But what happened in Pearl Harbor certainly didnt affect future generations, as did the nuclear bombing.
it didnt affect future generations??? it got us into a world war for crying out loud, i am dam sure that affects future generations

"instead going there to fight with their military personell and loosing some of our soldiers, its better to bomb their soldiers and all of their civilians aswell to save our soldiers lives!"
good decision there, i'd be really proud...

loose some soldiers?? the japs fought to the death that would mean millions of lives, 200,000 lives vrs 3,000,000 + lives
u would support loosing a million troops and killing another 2 million rather than bombing them killing 200,000??? it was to end the 'greatest' war the world has ever seen... in case u cant tell i used greatest as in biggest

[FingolfinGR]

I cant tell for sure how big the Japanese troops were during that time, but Japan is a small country. Nothing like the US. In any case, killing civilians that way and condemning future generations to mutations and such (still happens) put this "deed" to my black book.

it got us into a world war for crying out loud, i am dam sure that affects future generations

either u didnt get the point or i act like you dont. By this i ment it affected future generations as in being born with 3 legs/arms and many more mutations. Nothing like that happened in the US. Ever. Only 2 attacks the US had on their own ground was Pearl Harbor and 9/11. ALL other wards you fought on other lands.

[Gex]

Hell, I take that as a compliment, I'm right up there in the Michael Moore category. Awesome. Talk about thorn in your side or what eh?

I'd like to think of myself as more of a Bill Hicks though, y'know?

Ya try. Ya do what ya can.





-Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on family visitation days, specifically targetting America, a neutral country, at a time when it was least defended, and killed hundreds, if not thousands of women and children.

Heh. Bomb Iraqi civilians all year round, that's far better. Drop a couple of nukes on Japan, that won't kill ''thousands of women and children'' at all

And the thing about 'where is this going?' well.. it's going round in circles. This 'debate' has disappeared up it's own ass 8 times already. Spot the theme:

'america nuked japan, affecting them to this day'
'yeah but we didn't lose any soldiors that way!! how dare anyone hate us?! We're the greatest damn country ever and if you don't believe so, you're WRONG'

'america is responsible for untold amounts of deaths in the middle east'
'you started it!!'

'they did 9-11!! OMFG!! KILL THEM ALL!!'
'erm, wrong country dudes.. besides, how many of their people have you killed?'
'well, erm.. bomb them anyway. we'll talk about bin laden later? and civilian deaths? OMFG PEARL HARBOUR'



All this said though, I do admire the passion with which you love your country. It's enviable that you could love something so blindly, and dismiss anything argued against it with such.. disregard. You've already been conditioned to do so I guess. It's such an extreme patriotism, and I'm glad I'm just able to think for myself on what England, America or any other country has done

[Murderface]

I think we all have to remember if people didnt die life wouldnt be so fucking sweet. We have too high of a population anyway, we need to thin out the herd. Natural selection, weaklings die while the strong prosper. Ever wonder why monkeys are stronger than people, we breed with the weak. Weak monkeys die in the wild. Thats why Im issuing a NWO, a battle royal if you will, to separate the strong from the weak. Who is with me say, JIGANOOB.

[Gex]

Haha, yeah, that's true- too many people. Make a huge dirt arena and put 50% of the population from every country in there, let them fight it out with broken bottles and bats 'til the death. And the winner? Well, you put him on a pedestal and shoot him in the head.

Put the whole thing on TV, you could sell T shirts, man, the possibilities are endless.

[muttonchops]

Now that is certainly debatable.The aftershock of the nuclear radiation had created severe injuries and casualties in Japan long after the war.Okay, so lets take into account radiation. Not counting long-term effects, the casualties, the bombs killed 214,000 people. Let's just take into account estimations done by the U.S. military, in order to see if continuing the assault or the bombing would cause more casualties and the bombs were by far the better option. Several different estimations put the casualty numbers over a million. Let's say that 750,000 people were injured or died from radiation (a gross over-estimate). That still isn't even one million.

And the US are the strongest supporters of Israel ever since.Considering that a huge number of Jews came to America during and after the Holocaust and make up a good percentage of our population, there would be HUGE cries of anti-semitism if we weren't supporting Israel. I am personally for Palestine, despite their methods, although I can understand why they chose those methods. However, it would cause riots in the Jewish community.

"instead going there to fight with their military personell and loosing some of our soldiers, its better to bomb their soldiers and all of their civilians aswell to save our soldiers lives!"
good decision there, i'd be really proud...Yeah, well you can be glad that the casualty count isn't one-two million as opposed to 214 thousand, as a result of that.

Heh. Bomb Iraqi civilians all year round, that's far better. Drop a couple of nukes on Japan, that won't kill ''thousands of women and children'' at all

Normally, in a debate like this, I wouldn't say this, but are you trying to be a jackass?

Did I say anywhere that it didn't kill thousands of women and children? Seems to me like you're just pulling this stuff out of your ass and trying to put those words in peoples mouths.

'america is responsible for untold amounts of deaths in the middle east'
'you started it!!'

And whatever we are responsible, in the time that you had raped the Middle East, the number of people you killed would have at least been tenfold. Hundreds of years, just raping the same land. And to what end?

You have a tendency to twist and oversimplify points. And you are certainly avoiding the points that I have been making. You still haven't discredited me at all.

'they did 9-11!! OMFG!! KILL THEM ALL!!'
'erm, wrong country dudes.. besides, how many of their people have you killed?'
'well, erm.. bomb them anyway. we'll talk about bin laden later? and civilian deaths? OMFG PEARL HARBOUR'

Sweeping generalizations about our country. For one, soon after 9/11 our war in Afghanistan was completely well-founded and supported by everyone. And there are still people there celebrating what we had done for the country. If we had managed Iraq in the same fashion, there would not be as huge of an uproar.

Blah blah blah, you always talk about how many people we killed. Yes, we've killed many people. Check any credible documents showing casualties of any war in any country. There have always been a large amount of civilians killed.

The point has already been made that had our jackass of a president not been such a retard, there would be far less casualties.

Gex, you're basis is completely generalized and skewed. You fail to recognize that the majority of people in our country don't have that view that you seemed to pull out of your ass. In fact, quite the opposite, many don't support the war anymore, simply because our president has handled the issue terribly and irreparable damage has been done. Our best bet would be humanitarian efforts sponsored by our government. So if terrorists want to bomb that stuff, then look who the asshole now?

I have in no way said that I supported the way we have managed the war. My point is that many in this thread, specifically, Brits, have basically said, "Oh look! They're doing a bad job! Let's cling to that issue and tell them how much better we are than them!"

'america nuked japan, affecting them to this day'
'yeah but we didn't lose any soldiors that way!! how dare anyone hate us?! We're the greatest damn country ever and if you don't believe so, you're WRONG'

I'm going to assume this isn't directed as me, as I have never said anything like that.

By the way, the effects of radiation went away a long time ago. A reaalllllyyyy long time ago. Like...40 years ago, give or take by a couple years of so. In fact, I was just in Nagasaki this summer, and everything is perfectly fine. I read the newspaper, I read nothing about lasting effects of radiation. In fact, the cities are flourishing. Not that it justifies our bombing them at all, but it goes to show that there aren't any effects to this day.

It's enviable that you could love something so blindly, and dismiss anything argued against it with such.. disregard.

Again, I will assume that this is directed at me, as I have provided factual evidence supporting my stance, as opposed to you, who has been arguing out of memory and I have corrected you on several occasions that would go to show how you could come to the conclusion that all Americans are ignorant.

---

I'd like to make a statement that doesn't only apply to this argument, but discussion in general.

Making sweeping generalizations about anything is wrong. You are bound to be wrong. There are few absolutes in this universe, and saying that, for example, that all Americans are blind-patriots, as about as accurate as saying that all Mexicans are lazy or that all Middle Easterners and Southwest Asians are terrorists.

[FingolfinGR]

i never made any generalizations and i usually only talked about each administration taking the decisions, not people. about:

Did I say anywhere that it didn't kill thousands of women and children? Seems to me like you're just pulling this stuff out of your ass and trying to put those words in peoples mouths.

i didnt put anything in your mouth. As you notice its not a quote, its a sarcastic comment.
What i really ment was that killing say, 214000 people, most of them civilians isnt the best way to end a war where u try to act like the good guy.

also about:
Yeah, well you can be glad that the casualty count isn't one-two million as opposed to 214 thousand, as a result of that.


well, you said that it might have come close to 1 million due to the radiation. None can be sure how many there would have been if the US started a full attack. Sure thing is that the ones that died (or were born mutated and are considered monsters) were civilians too. I'm still not convinced it was the best thing to do.


Making sweeping generalizations about anything is wrong. You are bound to be wrong. There are few absolutes in this universe, and saying that, for example, that all Americans are blind-patriots, as about as accurate as saying that all Mexicans are lazy or that all Middle Easterners and Southwest Asians are terrorists.

couldnt agree more, btw.

[muttonchops]

well, you said that it might have come close to 1 million due to the radiation.

I just said that 750,000 suffering from radiation is a gross over-statement. Not just from facts, but just from common sense, think about it. How many people do you think would have moved back to a place like that after it was just completely obliterated?

i didnt put anything in your mouth. As you notice its not a quote, its a sarcastic comment.
What i really ment was that killing say, 214000 people, most of them civilians isnt the best way to end a war where u try to act like the good guy.

It was written in a cynical manner and implied that someone had said that it didn't kill women and children. And I am absolutely sure I didn't say anything like that.

Ending a war killing any number of people is a bad thing. Many would rather see a war end with diplomacy rather than dead bodies. However, it was a fast solution that ultimately resulted in far less casualties than if the war was continued. Even if you take into account people affected by radiation.

Being a good guy is simply a matter of perspective. In an objective sense, there is no such thing as good. Just the assumption that we know what is best. But that is an entirely different debate.

[Thasador]

Props Muttonchops.

[FingolfinGR]

I just said that 750,000 suffering from radiation is a gross over-statement. Not just from facts, but just from common sense, think about it. How many people do you think would have moved back to a place like that after it was just completely obliterated?


i might have a look to see how many were affected by radiation post-war.
And about how many would have moved to that place? More than you think. People didnt know the consequenses of a nuclear bomb during that time. Dont forget these bombs were 2 of the very first ever built and the first and only to be used against human targets.


Ending a war killing any number of people is a bad thing. Many would rather see a war end with diplomacy rather than dead bodies. However, it was a fast solution that ultimately resulted in far less casualties than if the war was continued. Even if you take into account people affected by radiation.

i always prefer diplomacy to solve any issues. We (humanity as a whole) forget that there's room for everyone in the world and keep argueing and fighting (mainly talking about making war) about the most stupid things. Ending a war is sure harder than starting one, thats why i'm so negative towards the US politics atm. Opening fronts all the time isnt a good way to bring stability to the world. (I dont think that the US want stability, since they're the biggest weapon seller in the world atm, but thats a completely different debate aswell).


Being a good guy is simply a matter of perspective. In an objective sense, there is no such thing as good. Just the assumption that we know what is best.

about WW2, the Allies are supposed to be the "good" guys in a more objective way (we kinda got attacked one way or another before we jumped in). But ur right about good an evil in general terms, its really completely subjective.

But that is an entirely different debate.
i dont think we'd be argueing in that one.

[muttonchops]

In the years between 1950 and 1990, it is statistically estimated that hundreds of deaths are attributable to radiation exposure among atomic bomb survivors from both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Well, Wikipedia says that estimations were put around the hundreds. I guess even I made a gross over-estimation.

i always prefer diplomacy to solve any issues. We (humanity as a whole) forget that there's room for everyone in the world and keep argueing and fighting (mainly talking about making war) about the most stupid things. Ending a war is sure harder than starting one, thats why i'm so negative towards the US politics atm. Opening fronts all the time isnt a good way to bring stability to the world. (I dont think that the US want stability, since they're the biggest weapon seller in the world atm, but thats a completely different debate aswell).

Well, depends on what you mean by stability. I would agree that their selling of weapons is possibly a method of spreading their influence and if their customers happen to succeed, that's one more ally.

about WW2, the Allies are supposed to be the "good" guys in a more objective way (we kinda got attacked one way or another before we jumped in). But ur right about good an evil in general terms, its really completely subjective.

But the thing is, if you really want to get into a debate of good and evil, you'd have to understand that the more that live the merrier, isn't exactly an ultimate good. As a gross number of any species would imbalance nature, causing a huge number of people to die as a result.

[PhrozenDragon]

Sometimes you wonder if world peace can exist, or if it is as unlikely to exist as a utopia. In a way they both base themselves off the same thing. Utopia is the perfect society. In a perfect society, everybody obviously must be happy, but does anyone really believe that can happen? And if that can't happen in one society, how can it happen on a global scale?

But the thing is, if you really want to get into a debate of good and evil, you'd have to understand that the more that live the merrier, isn't exactly an ultimate good. As a gross number of any species would imbalance nature, causing a huge number of people to die as a result.

Don't come saying that humans aren't imbalancing nature already. Can you name any other creature in the top of the food chain that numbers 6 billion?

[darkjay]

'america is responsible for untold amounts of deaths in the middle east'
'you started it!!'


As the reader can see from these accounts the attorcities commiitted on the Christian side were anything but "Christian". The total number of deaths due to the crusades had been estimated at around nine million, at least half of which were Christians. Many of these were simply innocent civilians caught in the carnage.





i love how this started from 9/11 then onto all of this...

[muttonchops]

Don't come saying that humans aren't imbalancing nature already. Can you name any other creature in the top of the food chain that numbers 6 billion?

I'd rather not get into a debate about good and evil and the balance of nature.

So, back to the issue. Does anyone not believe that 9/11 was real?

[darkjay]

if you dont tell me and ill walk to shanksville and take a picture for ya...

this is a very touchy issue especially for anyone in NYC DC or western Pa

[DragoonWraith]

I registered here just to respond to this.

I lost dozens of friends to that attack. As in, three funerals a day for weeks on end, and missing funerals because of scheduling conflicts. Do not doubt that they were very, very real. I cannot describe the immensity of the pain you have just caused me by just writing that. You can keep your goddamn conspiracy theories to yourself next time, asshole.

The next time a cloud of ash from the corpses of your friends floats over your house, you can comment. Until then, keep your goddamn mouth shut.

[Carloseus]

thanks dragoon, im sorry you had to remember that pain. these two are correct. 9-11 the attacks as well as the effects were very real. i think the hating people that are unsatisfied with their lives are the ones that question the events, or make up conspiracy theories. notice that they didnt present these ideas until about a year after the attacks, mostly because they were afraid to start hating so readily. if they thought that this was the real truth, they would have announced it within a month of the attacks.

o by the way, did you guys hear?? Saddam Hussein has been found guilty and will be put to death.....old fashion style. i wish it was more old fashion, but it does fit his identity. true evil is hanged, and he will be too. i hope they also televise it here in the US, but knowing those bleeding heart liberals, we wont get to see it because they hate the idea of ending lives. even the lives of such evil and destructive people.

[Murderface]

At least you didnt see them die, I saw my uncle getting run over by a bus. Uhh it wasnt pretty, but he was a drunken asshole who beat up his wife so I really didnt care. And lets just say his body didnt exactly stay together.

[Gex]

Anyone who doesn't believe 9-11 was real is a giant asshole

But I just can't get to grips why it wasn't an equally messed up move letting Bin Laden (certainly the No1 suspect) get away and using 9-11 as an excuse to go rampaging around the middle east, a continuation of the crusade for the 2000's.

All you people defending the memories of those lost in 9-11, well, yeah, it needs to be done, and the whole world -aside from those who done it- sympathises with you, but Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Iraq? Vietnam?

That's all I'm trying to say. 9-11 was a retaliation, something that Western governments have been doing in other countries for a damn long time (be it with a country that they were at war with or weren't). I'm not trying to defend Britian's involvement, either in the current war or the first crusades.. And yes, I am going from memory, I don't know specific figures, nor am I bothered to look them up but I don't think that it matters how many people exactly died on 9-11 or in the crusades. America has killed more than their fair share of innocent people in recent years on other countries' home grounds. You can't reasonably defend that is my opinion. I don't think that all Americans are blind, disillusioned patriots who think that their country has never done wrong, but I do think that quite a few are. If you can prove me wrong on that, hell, I'll sing all of the American national anthem and get a bald eagle tattooed on my arse. The common peoples like you and I of the countries involved aren't the ones in the wrong, it's the Bush's and the Blair's

Yes, it truly is a great day for human rights when it's announced that Hussain will be hung, no one in their right mind would argue that.
I wanted to know more about the trial and it's implications, so I read some stuff about it, including the following. Worth a read, I'd say..
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1959051.ece

[Murderface]

My government is full of corrupt bleeding heart nosy ninnys worried about protecting "the childeren". Why do we to protect the childeren, were just turning them into a bunch of politically correct faggots with carbon copy opinions. fuck'em fuck'em all, fuck the government and fuck the children and fuck 911.

This was your Murderface short and sweet rant of the day.
brought to you by Camel "Pleasure to Burn"

[Kenelm]

Well this is something that is hard to understand. In France, in 1994-1995, a lot of people died because of terrorists' bomb attacks. So yeah, it happened in France too. And french people thought it was terrorists' bomb attacks. But what do german, spanish, italian, english, and swedish people thought ? They said it was fake and all made by the french government, and they had a lot of reasons to say such a thing, and we all said "YOU ALL ARE ASSHOLES !! OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD NEVER DO THIS !!!", but well, they could be right.

It's just because of this thing called "patriotism", the way you love your country and its government, which makes you would never believe it to act wrong.

11/9 is the same thing. You americans love your country, and americans are such patriots... So, it hurts most of you to hear that some people think that 11/9 was fake.

I myself thought that in France, these were real terrorist attacks, but i had to accept the fact that some people say it was fake. Because they are not patriots to my country, and so, they can believe that my country could do such horrible things. Of course, they are affected by the deaths, but they don't agree with the reasons why it happened.

When you really think about it, you start to think that these guys could be right. You just believe in something that doesn't really exists. Patriotism is nothing. You love your country, politicians say they do, but do they really do ? I started to see that i was blind. So i opened my eyes, and now i think that the french government is responsible of these attacks.

So, learn to do the same. I don't ask you to believe them. Just to open your eyes, and really consider what these people are saying, forgetting about patriotism for a few minutes, and ask yourself "Could they be right ?"
I don't say they are right, i just say that the reason why you think they are wrong is your blindness because of you patriotism.

I know it's hard, i lost my aunt and my cousin in these bomb attacks, but try to forget this, just enough to consider what they say rather than saying it's bullshit just because you disagree.

[Thasador]

Close this thread now. My grandma died by one of the nearby collapsing buildings of 9-11.

[Gex]

I know it's hard, i lost my aunt and my cousin in these bomb attacks, but try to forget this, just enough to consider what they say rather than saying it's bullshit just because you disagree.


Many people have lost family members to terrorist attacks. That's why they're so fucked up. No matter what country carries out the attacks on civilians..

Good points Kenelm. It's good that some people can un-learn patriotism. But it's so deep-rooted in some people that it's all they'll ever know

[Murderface]

He is right, politics is bullshit I say kill the thread.

[Thasador]

I second motion along by the side of my brother in arm Murderface.

[Gex]

Why shy away from it?

[Thasador]

Why shy away from it?
Some of us were destroyed internally of the 9-11 attack. Some of use have lost family and friends and do not wish others to state that 9-11 was a fake when so many have died.

[FingolfinGR]

So, back to the issue. Does anyone not believe that 9/11 was real?

I dont think anyone is stupid enough to think that 9/11 wasnt real. The thing is that it came at a time when Bush really needed it and he had most profit from it. That was the main point of the thread i think. Many innocent people died there, as many innocent people got killed (murdered?) in other places with other people responsible.
To be honest, i think Bush (the puppet) knew about it and let it happen. In fact, the things i've seen in Fahrenheit 9/11 (pretty valid proof) proved he knew about the possibility of such an attack and did nothing. He could have stopped it. But it suited him more not to.

The next time a cloud of ash from the corpses of your friends floats over your house, you can comment. Until then, keep your goddamn mouth shut.

too bad the civilians in Iraq/Lebanon etc dont have internet to open their mouths and talk.


o by the way, did you guys hear?? Saddam Hussein has been found guilty and will be put to death.....old fashion style. i wish it was more old fashion, but it does fit his identity. true evil is hanged, and he will be too. i hope they also televise it here in the US, but knowing those bleeding heart liberals, we wont get to see it because they hate the idea of ending lives. even the lives of such evil and destructive people.

i hope they televise the execution of the ones that supported him in the first place in Greece too. I'd also like to see the execution of the one that was responsible of bombing hospitals and refugee caravans. Would be a good thing to see more "evil" get hanged, dont u think?

[darkjay]

every country in the world has performed "evil" acts, some are just more publicised than others

on a side note, does anyone know if they will show his excecution on television??

[muttonchops]

No. They never televise executions.

[darkjay]

I kinda figured they wouldn't, i dont even think thats legal. Is it??

[Ferret]

well, you might find a webcam or something of the likes if you really are desperate to see it, but it might not even be live footage by the time you get to see it. i remember the executions of people coming from NATO countries in iraq, a day later and my whole computer class had seen it.

[FingolfinGR]

i really dont like death penalties... I already explained why in the right thread for it. In all ways its either "no punishment enough" or it doesnt make u (the one that decided it at least) any better than the one to be executed.

[DarknessAngel]

This has nothing to do with 9/11 do not flame me on posting this on the wrong section or criticize, crizicism is appreaited on the following matter.

P.S reading my post is also a waste of your time

WHO EVER FUCKING THINKS THAT U.S IS BETTER THAN ALL THE FUCKING OTHER COUNTRIES ARE FUCKING BLIND!!!! THE US ECONOMY IS SLOW SLOWLY SLOWLY FALLING APART, MAJOR COMPANIES( like dell & w/e) ARE NOW COPERATING AT OTHER COUNTRIES ( like China & w/e ) CANT PEOPLE SEE THAT EVERYTHING(95%) GOODS ARE FROM CHINA & OTHER COUNTRIES ( mostly China though) WE ARE BUYING SO MUCH, THE NATIONAL DEPT IS HIGH, AND I REALLY THINK AMERICA IS ABOUT TO GO INTO ANOTHER DEPRESSION, BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE JOB-LESS PEOPLE AND HOME-LESS PEOPLE EVER NOW THAN OTHER TIMES(excluding the The Great Depression and early 1700s)

[Carloseus]

WHO EVER FUCKING THINKS THAT U.S IS BETTER THAN ALL THE FUCKING OTHER COUNTRIES ARE FUCKING BLIND!!!! THE US ECONOMY IS SLOW SLOWLY SLOWLY FALLING APART, MAJOR COMPANIES( like dell & w/e) ARE NOW COPERATING AT OTHER COUNTRIES ( like China & w/e ) CANT PEOPLE SEE THAT EVERYTHING(95%) GOODS ARE FROM CHINA & OTHER COUNTRIES ( mostly China though) WE ARE BUYING SO MUCH, THE NATIONAL DEPT IS HIGH, AND I REALLY THINK AMERICA IS ABOUT TO GO INTO ANOTHER DEPRESSION, BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE JOB-LESS PEOPLE AND HOME-LESS PEOPLE EVER NOW THAN OTHER TIMES(excluding the The Great Depression and early 1700s)im sorry you think of me this way, darkness. i never knew you though of me as blind and stupid, i guess i know now.

as for your comments, i have proof to disprove you. take a look.

poverty rates
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l319/Carloseus/PovertyintheUS.jpg


unemployment rates
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l319/Carloseus/unemployment.jpg



for the homeless rates, there appear to be no charts or any official records of the homeless rates, if you have any, please tell me.

if you have any arguments about this, tell them now.

[PhrozenDragon]

Woah, early depression in 1700? Don't you mean the depression in the 30's?

Anyway, my opinion is that it's all politics. If (note if) people high up in power knew about the impending attack, and saw that they would profit either politically or economically from it, there is a chance that they might have let it happen. In such ways operate all powers driven by humans.

I do not believe however that that was what happened. Believing that the attack came out of the blue is both politically correct, and more comforting. And more logical. Because if not, you would have to ask yourself: How could Bush live with himself if he indeed let it happen?

[FingolfinGR]

How could Bush live with himself if he indeed let it happen?

what makes you think he'd care if he could get away with it with a few more millions in his pockets?

he was aware of the possibility of an attack by hijacked airplanes. Its proven. He didnt act and it led him getting more profit. Coinsidence? I wouldnt think so.

[DarknessAngel]

carloseus : i never meant it like that....
and phrozen dragon : *eye twitch* a damn fool would know that the The great depression wasnt in the 1700s.... im talkin about how the British make other colonists and slaves travled to New England & without homes and stuff >.>

[PhrozenDragon]

Sorry, I missed the "and". Then I see what yo mean.

As for "proven", there is a lot of "proof" out there in the world that is completely wrong.
Obesity for example. All of you that think saturated fat and high cholesterol is the big enemy, you are in for a wake-up call in the near future. And all of you that believe vegetarianism is more healthy, the same applies.
The Green House effect is real. Just look at who sponsored the research reports that claims otherwise.
Increase in oil-prices is not mainly due to the middle east, but because of a lack of refineries.

And what makes me think that is that he will now that he was the direct cause of the death of over 2.000 people. That is why I doubt it.

[FingolfinGR]

by "Proven" i dont talk in general. I'm talking specifically about this situation (God bless Fahrenheit 9/11). People responsible about it from the current administration stated that there was a warning about such an attack possibility and Bush not only didnt do something about it, but he also cut the anti-terror (or how they were called) funds during that time. Once again, its too suspicious.

[PhrozenDragon]

So there was a hint of it? I am saying that Moore could very easily have twisted around facts to better siut the film. I'm not saying that he did it, but he could very well have. If Bush can supress facts from reaching the public, can Moore not twist them?

[Carloseus]

he was aware of the possibility of an attack by hijacked airplanes. Its proven. He didnt act and it led him getting more profit. Coinsidence? I wouldnt think so.

wow, your completely taking things way out of perspective. first of all, yes. people might have called about the attacks. second of all, millions of others call daily to report whatever other crap they believe, mostly untrue or not needed for the government to look into. third, bush was deeply affected by the issues his administration has faced. i was just recently looking at pictures of bush when he entered, and pictures of him now, and i saw a huge difference. he looks like he aged dramatically and seems more worn out. i dont know about you, but dispite your differing views with the president, i think that he is doing his best to do whats best for his country. if he wanted to make more money the presidency is definately not the way to go. just as george washington long ago. when he entered the presidency he accepted the responsibility and over time he was worn out and disheartened by his critics. in the same way, bush has faced troubles during his presidency and has been torn to shreds by critics and has remained true to what he said he would do. i dont see many leftists keeping true to what they say when the public disagrees with them.


carloseus : i never meant it like that....

well, i have been supporting everything you spoke against, and either you didnt see what i had posted before or you knowingly attacked me.

[FingolfinGR]

isnt it a fact now that the liberals got the Congress? Thank god some things are changing (i hope for the rest of the world too). The thing is that it wasnt just a hint. It was checked out and he had a whole file about it the summer before the attack.

If Bush can supress facts from reaching the public, can Moore not twist them?

sure, but its not twisting when he shows official government personell talking about it. By thinking that way we could not believe anything that isnt our own opinion and we could easily say the proof the other people bring isnt proof and they're twisting the truth.

[TwilightRealm]

Well it is possible that the government planned all this and there is evidence that supports that they did as well as evidence that they didnt, im not sure what happened but all i know is that September 11th was a horrible event either way. And no matter either way support the troops who fight in Iraq b/c they risk their lives everyday for our asses. So as for my opininion on september 11th i believe that terrorists took the planes and crashed them, not a fake or a government planned tragedy, although there is that possibility.

[Gex]

I wouldn't say that 9-11 was planned by the government, but the way it was handled (for example flying bin Laden family members out of the US to Paris) and the profits that were made..well.. it's just.. bone.

Bone = bollocks = naff = not very good.

[Caliban]

I think it was real and that u guys should just stop this nonsense! it was in the past, the way past!

[Gex]

Would it be in the past if you were living in Iraq?

[Murderface]

this thread is just running in circles. Im going to feast upon this thread when it gets nice and plump, then we'll see who the real terrorist is, ME! muhaha.

[Caliban]

lol Nice murderface!

[Carloseus]

careful murder, you dont want to send the wrong message now.

anyways, ill give you all a new outlook to the war and on bush.

sure bush is sending more and more troops to iraq, and soldiers are dying, but they arent losing morale by the war. here is a clear message:

Soldiers are not being drafted or forced to join the armed forces. everyone who goes to iraq knowingly fills out the application, trains, toils, and makes it into the forces BY WILL. they are in no way being forced, because if young men and women didnt want to go to iraq they wouldnt be trying to get into the military.

[Thasador]

And to add to Carloseus statement since I was in the Army, you sign your COD (Clause of Disintent) This will allow you to be discharged of duty if he or she is unable to fullfill your duties as a soldier on whatever job you have. I was a corporal in the 82nd armored division and was a welder for the M-1's. As soon as I heard that I might deploy to Iraq, I brought my COD to my commanding officer and asked to be discharged since at the time I was going to college. Like Carloseus said, you are not forced.

[FingolfinGR]

i'd like to say one more thing here and nothing else, really. We keep saying the same things over and over again and it gets pointless.
I never said its proven to be planned by the government/was a conspiracy. It was very real, very real terrorists apparently crashed these planes (even though they hit at the places they had to to make them collapse and that requires alot training), real innocent people died.
What i mentioned is that (its also a fact) the few persons known to have made most profit of Bin Ladens acts (since hes the one responsible according to everyone) were Bush, the vice president whos name i dont know how to spell and the family Bin Laden. That could make you think a few things.

I also disagree with the current politics about the war in Iraq and this whole campaign thats supposed to be a war against terror and ended up something completely different, but thats not really relevant with what this topic is all about.

[Murderface]

We are all terrorists, we terrorize demons and the undead dont we?

[darkjay]

ya this is getting way to repetative... the same points over and over... insted of us arguing this much just go back to page one and read one page a day lol

[mincepies]

If Bush wins the next election then America must be mentally retarded or something

[Ocarina]

If Bush wins the next election then America must be mentally retarded or something

Umm... Bush can't run again.

[Siaynoq]

If Bush wins the next election then America must be mentally retarded or something

Actually, if Bush wins the next election, then America must have amended the constitution to allow presidents to serve a third term.

[Gex]

A pretty unfair statement, in that Bush wasn't actually VOTED for

being voted for would mean that the MAJORITY of people's votes go your way, and you don't use other means to get into office

[Siaynoq]

A pretty unfair statement, in that Bush wasn't actually VOTED for

being voted for would mean that the MAJORITY of people's votes go your way, and you don't use other means to get into office

Were you referring to my comment? I'll not retort unless I know for sure.

[Gex]

Nah, I meant mincepies :)

Both our posts were made..pretty close to one another, timewise

[mincepies]

Umm... Bush can't run again.

Which is why American must be retarded if he wins.. :P

[DarknessAngel]

Which is why American must be retarded if he wins.. :P

the thing that makes most sense i have ever seen in this thread...

[muttonchops]

If Bush wins the next election then America must be mentally retarded or somethingYou're not from America are you? But then again, that's no excuse. How the hell do you not know that he can't run again? I think you're mentally retarded for making that post.

Actually, if Bush wins the next election, then America must have amended the constitution to allow presidents to serve a third term.Problem is that the Constitution hasn't been amended. Therefore, your point is moot. He is not allowed to run in the next election. Period. Don't say anything, cuz you'll still be wrong.

In response to both your posts, I would like to apply this message:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/xphusionzgx/incorrect.jpg

[Siaynoq]

Then you misunderstood me, guy. I was saying that the only way for Bush to run for a third time was if they amended the Constitution allowing a president to do so, implying that this actually hasn't happened and therefore he will not run for a third term.

This is merely an issue of reading comprehension.

[Gex]

Better luck with your smartass comments and ROFL-worthy pictures next time muttonchops

[Murderface]

What exactly has this thread mutated into. From here it smells like its mutated into a giant chunka bullshit.

[darkjay]

i thought we all agreed that this thread should die...

[Siaynoq]

I think this was my fault. I could see this thread was old but couldn't help responding to it anyway. Perhaps an admin should just close it.

[Carloseus]

i have made several attempts to close it, and if not at least remove stupidity from it. muttonchops, i think, has done a wonderful job of exploiting many of the stupidity wandering this thread, including a sorry siaynoq. sorry dude, but it is common sense, and you should not post common sense needlessly. muttonchops is right about that.

anyways, i second darkjay's vote on closing this thread.

[Gex]

You second the vote once you've had your little say about anyone who doesn't love America being stupid and wrong.

Just thought I'd point that out. But this is going nowhere, I agree it should be locked

[Murderface]

Well Ive already seconded this motion, so Ill third and fourth it.

[Thasador]

Just close the thread, we do not need this kind of publicity as well in our community. Any person can go to a search engine and type in any thing that has to do with 9/11 being fake. We would probably be the first on the list.

[SilVerSurFnStud]

-----closed-----