RMAH doesn't make D3 lose its "virtual reality". That just doesn't make any sense. It's still not real regardless.
I didn't say D3 loses its virtual reality, I said that the RMAH will tie in virtual reality more directly to your real life. This shouldn't be happening in a game.
The guy that would think bots are ok to use is already using them. And as long as I'm able to play without a bot in my game, then I wouldn't care if they exist because I know I don't want to use them.
Not necessarily. Someone that can't create their own bot or has never thought of going out of their way to buy a bot off the black market wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean they won't readily accept the introduction of bot selling on the RMAH.
Similarly with the RMAH in general. Many players didn't buy items from sites in D2, but the RMAH creates incentives for them to do so in D3, so they will. I've already addressed these points anyway.
And just as you would CHOOSE not to sell that item for $50, people can CHOOSE to not buy loot from HC-RMAH.
I know! When did I ever say I didn't have a choice?
For someone like me that lives in a developed country and has a decent - on the side - income rate, selling on the RMAH would be counter-productive, and buying would be very productive. But I don't want to ruin my gaming experience by buying items, and I don't like the fact that Blizzard is presenting all their great deals to me. They're trying to get us to use the RMAH and it's working...
It's not like you join a game, start killing things and "OMG THE HC-RMAH IS RIGHT THERE NEXT TO MY CHARACTER! AHH IT'S TAUNTING ME TO BUY STUFF OMG NO, DAMMIT, NOOO!". You would have to stop not-buying-loot by exiting the game you're in, and click into a completely different part of the game's interface to even begin to interact with the HC-RMAH.
??? Do you even understand how the general population of human psychology works? Can you understand the concept of impulse buying? Can you understand why so many people run to the stores on Black Friday or whatever holiday it is to get cheap deals?
It's more like "oh ok so I've been farming for 10 hours now trying to find item X, but still haven't got it. Oh but look over there, it sells for $20 on the RMAH. I make $20 an hour at work, so obviously buying it will be good use of my time".
*buys the item*
But now I feel dirty...
As far as having to spend 2 hours to farm or not can be and currently is "undermined" all of the time anyway. How many fail-players are just handed loot all of the time by their friends that actually know how to play? Or even given in-game currency to go buy all their gear and didn't have to put in the time to get that far in the first place?
So in other words you're saying that luck shouldn't be involved in the game? A game where magic find is a big deal, and you don't want luck? How exactly did you think this was equivalent to spending real assets, a commodity IRL that some people have much more of than others. It's pretty much like starting a new game, but not everyone starts on the same playing field. If you are rich and willing to spend it on the RMAH, you're already going to be miles ahead of others. Is this fair? Is it fair to tie in ones real life into their virtual reality life?
Don't people play games to escape the real world sometimes?
I understand that it's really hard to let go of one's vision of what Hardcore is supposed to be...but even with the Gold AH, your vision no longer exists.
The same principle always applies in any trading game, whether you can trade through an auction house or by player to player trading. If you're good at making an income that way, then so be it, but at least you've only been taking advantage of your gaming assets as opposed to getting your real life assets involved.
I also get the feeling that there's a lot of people that found refuge in HC just because they thought there was no RMAH.
That's what just doesn't make sense of any kind. I guess once people believe the sky really is falling, there's no stopping the stampede...
I'm quite amazed at your ignorance. Even after all the points I've given, you just shrug them off as if they're invalid. Everyone feels the same way you do huh?
I understand why you want an RMAH, but you can't comprehend why myself and many others don't want it. That speaks volumes about your inability to acknowledge the psychological effects that an RMAH will bring to the table.
I said that the RMAH will tie in virtual reality more directly to your real life. This shouldn't be happening in a game.
Everything you are doing even right this second is real life. Simply controlling a character IS tying your real life actions to the behavior of this virtual reality character and the environment you would have interactions with. The magnitude in which one is "tied" to it is up to the individual. If playing a game is adversely affecting their real life (such as overspending), that is their personal problem that they need to resolve. It is completely ridiculous to oppose HC-RMAH just because someone can't control what they invest into this game.
The guy that would think bots are ok to use is already using them. And as long as I'm able to play without a bot in my game, then I wouldn't care if they exist because I know I don't want to use them.
Not necessarily. Someone that can't create their own bot or has never thought of going out of their way to buy a bot off the black market wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean they won't readily accept the introduction of bot selling on the RMAH.
Similarly with the RMAH in general. Many players didn't buy items from sites in D2, but the RMAH creates incentives for them to do so in D3, so they will. I've already addressed these points anyway.
No, you haven't. You repeatedly fail to establish a fair reason why it is so wrong for a person to spend their own real money on virtual goods as they would choose.
If I were forced to bot or otherwise interact directly with a bot, that would be very different.
How about if you saw everyone around you botting while they're not online? How would you feel then?
Buying a piece of loot for real money absolutely does not have the same impact on the game experience that automating all Player Character actions would as you are suggesting. "Everyone online is a bot" is FAR different from "Oh, little Jimmy over there paid $5 for that sword." FAR different...
And just as you would CHOOSE not to sell that item for $50, people can CHOOSE to not buy loot from HC-RMAH.
I know! When did I ever say I didn't have a choice?
Because you keep saying you would be tempted thereby implying that your uncontrollable compulsion would override your preferred rational choice and that it is an unfavorable "psychological effect". I'm here to inform you that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
For someone like me that lives in a developed country and has a decent - on the side - income rate, selling on the RMAH would be counter-productive, and buying would be very productive. But I don't want to ruin my gaming experience by buying items, and I don't like the fact that Blizzard is presenting all their great deals to me. They're trying to get us to use the RMAH and it's working...
I'm here to inform you (again) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
It's not like you join a game, start killing things and "OMG THE HC-RMAH IS RIGHT THERE NEXT TO MY CHARACTER! AHH IT'S TAUNTING ME TO BUY STUFF OMG NO, DAMMIT, NOOO!". You would have to stop not-buying-loot by exiting the game you're in, and click into a completely different part of the game's interface to even begin to interact with the HC-RMAH.
??? Do you even understand how the general population of human psychology works? Can you understand the concept of impulse buying? Can you understand why so many people run to the stores on Black Friday or whatever holiday it is to get cheap deals?
Acutally, yes. I do. It is the same thing that raised a girl on Chicken McNuggets until the age of 17: http://www.dailymail...gets-age-2.html . Between the propaganda her parents received "Hey, cheap fast meal for the kids!", the propaganda she was surely exposed to "Hey kids, Chicken McNuggets are good and you get a toy in your Happy Meal!", and presumeably her parents' weak and/or ignorant parenting skills were highly pursuasive and a bad combination for the girl. But by your reasoning, McDonalds should not be allowed to exist because their "psychological effects" had this (presumeably) unfavorable result from so much purchasing (and subsequent consumption) of the Chicken McNuggets. I'm here to inform you (Yes! Again!) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
It's more like "oh ok so I've been farming for 10 hours now trying to find item X, but still haven't got it. Oh but look over there, it sells for $20 on the RMAH. I make $20 an hour at work, so obviously buying it will be good use of my time".
*buys the item*
But now I feel dirty...
*clears throat* Ahem. I'm here to inform you (for the fourth time) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
As far as having to spend 2 hours to farm or not can be and currently is "undermined" all of the time anyway. How many fail-players are just handed loot all of the time by their friends that actually know how to play? Or even given in-game currency to go buy all their gear and didn't have to put in the time to get that far in the first place?
So in other words you're saying that luck shouldn't be involved in the game?
No. By asking this, you are implying that the HC-RMAH will irradicate luck. It will not.
How exactly did you think this was equivalent to spending real assets, a commodity IRL that some people have much more of than others. It's pretty much like starting a new game, but not everyone starts on the same playing field. If you are rich and willing to spend it on the RMAH, you're already going to be miles ahead of others. Is this fair? Is it fair to tie in ones real life into their virtual reality life?
Don't people play games to escape the real world sometimes?
You are suggesting that everyones' proverbial "Point A" start in the same place and that the means to reach "Point B" remain the same as well or else that is not fair. If you're worrying about any sort of world-first achievements, I have another news flash for you: Items are only generated when a PLAYER causes them to generate such as when they kill a monster or open a box. So it is impossible to buy your way to the top before others that actually farmed up the gear because the genuine players will have already dumped the rest of their extra gear into the AH's after they got all of their world-firsts. They're the ones putting the first BiS loot into the AH in the first place! How the hell else would it be purchaseable? You cannot outpace or outplay genuine skill simply by purchasing loot. It is impossible.
Also, we are all inherently on an "uneven playing field" from the start. You have already confessed to making a steady income. Surely, this requires part of your waking hours that you cannot or choose not to divert to Diablo. There are people with a LOT more time on their hands and will divert more time than you to Diablo. Should they not be allowed to play more than you do? Unfortunately, you're going to have to accept that lots of others are going to have much bigger epeens and much sooner than you for lots of different reasons. And others are going to have smaller ones for other reasons some of which are, dare I say, monetary!
For example, it is a monetary reason that the guy down the street can't progress as fast as you despite investing the same (or even more time) because his computer sucks and lags a lot and takes a long time to load whereas yours is amazing and lightning-fast, I'm sure. By your reasoning, Blizzard should deprive everyone else greater enjoyment by lowering the detail of the game altogether to reduce the system load so that you and the hoboe down the street are on even terms. Once again, I must point out that you are utilizing unfair, unbalanced reasoning.
And one last note: I keep bringing up that your opinion would serve to deprive everyone else. Well, it would. You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be ignoring the consequences everyone else would have to endure in this case as a result of your personal problem of having no self-control. That reasoning of yours is selfish and faulty when applied in this case which is a community-wide issue, not a personal account setting of some kind. If there were to be no HC-RMAH because of your opinion, then there would be no HC-RMAH for anyone. That result would be highly unbalanced and unfair to the community as a whole because self-control is a factor that is subjective to a given individual, not an entire group of people.
I understand that it's really hard to let go of one's vision of what Hardcore is supposed to be...but even with the Gold AH, your vision no longer exists.
The same principle always applies in any trading game, whether you can trade through an auction house or by player to player trading. If you're good at making an income that way, then so be it, but at least you've only been taking advantage of your gaming assets as opposed to getting your real life assets involved.
It is a monetary (real-life asset) reason that the guy down the street can't progress as fast as you despite investing the same (or even more time) because his computer sucks and lags a lot and takes a long time to load whereas yours is amazing and lightning-fast, I'm sure. (Déjà vu?) Real-life circumstances already play a huge role in a player's progression. Having a faster computer IS leveraging real-life assets...
Yes...so let's bring it into the very thing we use to escape it (and other things)...that's using your head.
Oh, so you're saying that saying "no" will actually keep it out? Ah k, I see.
No, I believe maka is trying to say that just because something works the way it does in the real world doesn't mean it needs to happen in the game.
No, he's saying that I am saying "let's bring marketing (i.e. HC-RMAH) into the environment in which we intend to escape it". But then he goes on "...that's using your head." which is sarcastic. That is communicating what the opposite is of what he percieves my logic to be and therefore imply that I correct my faulty logic by doing the opposite of what he has accused me of which is to NOT bring in RMAH which is an active inaction. So yes, he is saying that saying "no" is the appropriate "way to use your head".
I also get the feeling that there's a lot of people that found refuge in HC just because they thought there was no RMAH.
That's what just doesn't make sense of any kind. I guess once people believe the sky really is falling, there's no stopping the stampede...
I'm quite amazed at your ignorance. Even after all the points I've given, you just shrug them off as if they're invalid.
No, your points are not invalid. They are simply faulty. If I was shrugging you off as invalid, I would have accused you of trolling by now. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. I'm just telling you yours is very flawed.
I understand why you want an RMAH, but you can't comprehend why myself and many others don't want it. That speaks volumes about your inability to acknowledge the psychological effects that an RMAH will bring to the table.
No, I comprehend them just fine. I'm simply informing you they are flawed and unfair as well as why they are flawed and unfair.
I honestly don't care if they put the RMAH in HC, but I really dont think they should allow character selling. I really think most people that want RMAH in HC is because they think they will sell items for a lot more money since characters can die, so there will always be a need for the items which keeps the price up. Honestly, I dont think there will be that many people buying in HC since the people who play HC are playing for the challenge in the first place and dont feel the need to buy things.
Buying a lvl 60 in HC would be dumb, but items, sure, whatever.
I only play HC and I would like if we had the RMAH so that I can make a little bit of money while im playing the game for fun I don't care what other people are doing with there money I know I will never buy anything from it but selling is a different story especially if I don't need it. And the people that just buy there gear they wont know how to play the character so they will just end up dying and then they will need the items again I think the market for HC will be better than SC with the potential to lose it all.
I think Blizz will realize that HC RMAH will end up being their bread and butter of D3. Obviously at first, everyone will be making normal characters and using the normal RMAH, but after awhile, once everyone maxes out and and has farmed for awhile, the normal AH will be used less and less and people will be experimenting with HC more.
Also, HC will always be creating a demand and item sink. Once a character dies, the items die with him. In normal mode, its only a matter of time before there are 5000 of each item on the AH since everyone has the best in slot all ready. HC will always have a demand for new items.
The only reason RMAH is in the game is because it will make blizzard money. You can see in their games that many things that were once considered cheating are now acceptable, or slightly masked, because they can make money off it. Many of the things you can buy from the blizzard store haven't been bound to your account, and people sell it for gold, and are basically buying gold. Saying RMAH is a good way to keep people from shady deals is a good excuse. It seems they figured that it is a lot less effort to mandate the item selling themselves instead of trying to stop what was considered cheating by many.
I don't like the RMAH, but I've come to terms with it. I know blizzard wouldn't be able to stop all item selling, and that it would happen regardless. But the fact that their solution is making it a part of the game, really takes away from games being games. When you cant find an item with out thinking how much money I can make off it, or seeing someone with good gear but you can't tell if they bought it or actually got it. Sure you couldn't tell for diablo 2, but at least it wasn't encouraged by the game itself.
It really does impact everyone that chooses not to partake in the RMAH, because everyone who finds a near perfect item is going to think would they rather have some amount of gold, or another 50$ in their pocket for playing a game. The money auction house will most definitely be filled with all the best gear, while the gold auction house will have a fraction of what you see in comparison. People who buy gear will be rolling around in options, while people who don't have money to spend will take what they can get from the gold auction house and drops. In the end you buy power, its no different from buying achievements or buying something that should be prestigious. All those prestigious things lose their value, and the people who actually get it will go for the most part unnoticed. Obviously I can't say that's garunteed how it will be, but it's all fair assumptions.
I plan on sticking to solo play and exclusively with friends to avoid the RMAH at all costs, but hey to each their own and hope the people who put money into the items get some fun out of it. Hey maybe in the end the RMAH will make blizzard loads of money and they will put out tons of content outside the release and expansions and the game will be even better than we could have thought because of the RMAH.
The only reason RMAH is in the game is because it will make blizzard money. You can see in their games that many things that were once considered cheating are now acceptable, or slightly masked, because they can make money off it. Many of the things you can buy from the blizzard store haven't been bound to your account, and people sell it for gold, and are basically buying gold. Saying RMAH is a good way to keep people from shady deals is a good excuse. It seems they figured that it is a lot less effort to mandate the item selling themselves instead of trying to stop what was considered cheating by many.
I don't like the RMAH, but I've come to terms with it. I know blizzard wouldn't be able to stop all item selling, and that it would happen regardless. But the fact that their solution is making it a part of the game, really takes away from games being games. When you cant find an item with out thinking how much money I can make off it, or seeing someone with good gear but you can't tell if they bought it or actually got it. Sure you couldn't tell for diablo 2, but at least it wasn't encouraged by the game itself.
It really does impact everyone that chooses not to partake in the RMAH, because everyone who finds a near perfect item is going to think would they rather have some amount of gold, or another 50$ in their pocket for playing a game. The money auction house will most definitely be filled with all the best gear, while the gold auction house will have a fraction of what you see in comparison. People who buy gear will be rolling around in options, while people who don't have money to spend will take what they can get from the gold auction house and drops. In the end you buy power, its no different from buying achievements or buying something that should be prestigious. All those prestigious things lose their value, and the people who actually get it will go for the most part unnoticed. Obviously I can't say that's garunteed how it will be, but it's all fair assumptions.
I plan on sticking to solo play and exclusively with friends to avoid the RMAH at all costs, but hey to each their own and hope the people who put money into the items get some fun out of it. Hey maybe in the end the RMAH will make blizzard loads of money and they will put out tons of content outside the release and expansions and the game will be even better than we could have thought because of the RMAH.
Am very much of the same opinions...it is very sad to see Diablo 3 being monetised and I can't help but feel Blizzard did so with the main goal of ensuring both a steady stream of income to pay for future running costs, as well as make money in general.
The excuse of 'but it'll happen unofficially anyway' is convenient, but nonsensical justification. Just like doping or match-fixing has no place in RL competitive sport, RL money should have no place in this kind of gaming...it goes against the core values of what gaming is. Your success or progress should not be determined or influenced by how much you can afford.
I can only similarly hope that blizzard puts some of the money they make into improvements to the game and I very much do NOT want to see the RMAH coming to hardcore (although I have a feeling the money making potential is too strong for them to hold out for long).
I understand that it's really hard to let go of one's vision of what Hardcore is supposed to be...but even with the Gold AH, your vision no longer exists.
Imagine someone creates a HC character and goes through normal, saving his or her gold. Now that person is really good at the AH- just like a lot of WoW players are fantastic at the AH. That person can take that gold and make profit off of it, and eventually buy items best for his level. Now imagine they are so good at profiting, that throughout their HC levelling experience, he always has the best item set for that Act. Not only that, but because he has to farm less in the game, there is a much lower chance of encountering death.
That HC character is not achieving "HC status" by playing the way you intended. He is achieving that status by making a profit off of the AH.
I really think you're just going to have to let go of what makes a "HC" character "really HC".
How is this any different then being good at trading in D2? In one situation you take advantage of what you have in the game to get more things in the game by knowing what is valuable and what is not. In the other you take something from outside of the game to get more things.
I guess there's a few ways of looking at the RMAH in Hardcore, but over-all I think it will be a good thing. It really just depends on your view of the game and the length of time you plan on playing it.
I mean, D2 is over ten years old now, and I still fire up a copy for some fun every now and again. Will you be playing D3 in 2 years time? 5 years? 10 years?
I actually look at the RMAH as a cool thing for a long term player. Hardcore especially. Not so you can cheat your way to the top, but so you can sell some of that random crap that you don't want. I also think that I probably will buy a few items from the RMAH. Not now, no way. But in 3 years time, when I've finished the game with every character class (including expansions) and want to try out some of those really wacky builds that require some pretty specific items to actually work.
There is also the fact of those legendary items that are just too cool to not pass down. Sure, you can just give them to someone, or even sell them in the game gold auction house, but selling them for real cash would be fun as well. If it was a feature in D2, how much do you think a +3RS, +3SM, +2AD, 1 socket (jewel of envy from memory) wand would be worth for for a necro in the RMAH? I had one that I passed down to a mate after using it for my necro, and he passed it to his friend, who then sold it for some gems (the git). You could use it at level one, and it would probably be your wand for half the game. Sometimes I would be happy to buy a wand like this to jump start a character, it just let's you fly through a lot of the initial stuff, but I'd be happier to sell it for a bit of real cash after my character had used them up. I'd be even more happy if the had the name-your-item quest in D3, so everyone would know you got it legit, but someone else bought it. Then you could have some heirloom style items, non-unique/non-runeword items, that slowly build up their own rep. Especially with youTUBE vids etc. I'd be pleased as punch if I saw my items stomping the ubers in a video.
I guess what I'm saying, is what's the harm in selling some items? You don't have to buy any if you don't want to. I'm not talking chinese-game-farms where it will be your (and some very cheap worker's) main source of income, just a way of getting a bit of cash that you'll mostly use to buy other stuff later-on for niche character builds. What's the difference from trading in game or any other form of jump starting characters. It's hard not to in public games, or even private ones. Is having a healer along in your party cheating? It helped you heaps. Have you broken some strange arcane rule of harcore hardcoreness? What if you were the healing orientated character? Or a buffer/de-buffer? Have you totally destroyed other character's 'l33t skills and rep in HC? No? You still grabbed a character boost and probably ran through a couple of acts really quickly and easily. You didn't use RL cash, you didn't pay anyone. You horrible slave driver, you. What's worse? Paying someone for their time or not? Laughing at cashed up RMAH buyers dieing early on? Having elitist views of just how the game should be played regardless of the reality of the matter? It's hard to say what is worse............... They're all pretty insignificant and merely an end user's viewpoint.
Let's get down to another fact as well. Blizzard has become HUGE since the days of D2. WOW gave them the idea that people will pay to play, but in return they'll keep the game going, forever if necessary, as long as the cash keeps rolling in. We WANT them to have a revenue stream from D3. Or else they won't do squat to support it. I'd like to still be playing D3 in a few years to come, even if it did take a RMAH tax on some of the HC items I hocked to get another expansion/bug-fix-release/server support in five years time.
I say add it, anyone who buys from it should know of the consequences of their actions if they die.
It effects no one. It doesn't "hurt" the appearance of HC by any means. Who cares if someone doesn't have 40 hours a week to play the game and hit end game without a little help? Does it honestly effect you? Are you that sad that it would?
I am all for the RMAH on hardcore... It's not like people are going to buy items and automatically clear the content. The market will most likely be very lucrative to be honest, unlike the softcore. In softcore there is no lifespan for most "good" items, they are essentially immortal. On hardcore, it is completely opposite. Really good items will most likely sell for a lot of money =)
I say add it, anyone who buys from it should know of the consequences of their actions if they die.
It effects no one. It doesn't "hurt" the appearance of HC by any means. Who cares if someone doesn't have 40 hours a week to play the game and hit end game without a little help? Does it honestly effect you? Are you that sad that it would?
Agreed.
It's like Casino, you pay so and so to get so and so...or to loose so and so.
Meanwhile, your friend is at home enjoy playing games.
You both in the same world, but live it differently, no hurt feelings.
Hardcore is like real life, you can buy and cheat all you want to. But dude, if you are dead, say goodbye.
It effects no one. It doesn't "hurt" the appearance of HC by any means. Who cares if someone doesn't have 40 hours a week to play the game and hit end game without a little help? Does it honestly effect you? Are you that sad that it would?
Are you that sad that you can't enjoy playing a game like Diablo without having to resort to your wallet for an advantage?
People that like having good gear but don't actually like playing the game to get it (which is arguably what Diablo is all about), need to rethink why they are interested in this game.
Games are about having fun. Beyond the intial cost to buy the game, leave money out of it.
Some people don't have the time to farm for great items endlessly. They would rather spend their time working and spend that money on their hobby (in this case a game). Who the FUCK do you think you are to tell them they can't? Hell, it's much more productive than someone who sits on their ass all day farming.
Furthermore, I'll be glad to take their money so I can sit on my ass and play more Diablo 3.
Everybody wins except the idealist who thinks it's somehow inherently wrong to spend money on a game or for a player to make money off of a game. Actually the idealist wins too, because once he realizes there's no downside to a system where people spend real cash to in effect support a community of hardcore gamers be able to play the game they love even more he will accept the system wholeheartedly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Some people don't have the time to farm for great items endlessly. They would rather spend their time working and spend that money on their hobby (in this case a game). Who the FUCK do you think you are to tell them they can't? Hell, it's much more productive than someone who sits on their ass all day farming.
That's their problem. This may be a revelation to your rude ass, but sometimes you can't have everything you want. Rare items are rare for a reason.
What makes you think that those people are somehow entitled to better gear or an easier time getting gear than the people who ARE playing the game?
The whole point of Diablo is getting items. If you find yourself disliking playing the game so much that you feel the need to pay money to skip bits of it, then you are doing it wrong, or maybe need to find another game.
Everybody wins except the idealist who thinks it's somehow inherently wrong to spend money on a game or for a player to make money off of a game.
And what exactly was the problem with gaming for fun? There are people who would prefer gaming to be about gaming and not what job you have or how much you can afford.
Actually the idealist wins too, because once he realizes there's no downside to a system where people spend real cash to in effect support a community of hardcore gamers be able to play the game they love even more he will accept the system wholeheartedly.
Do you think that Blizzard went to great efforts trying to stop RMT's in Diablo2 and WoW because they felt like it, or because they thought banning accounts was fun? It's because it gives people an unfair advantage and fundamentally goes against what multiplayer gaming should be.
The reason for the policy shift now is simply because they are resigned to not being able to stop it, and so decided to at least capitalise on it (and hopefully yes, some benefit will flow back in) and make it safer for people who need instant gratification without effort.
It doesn't mean it's an ideal solution or that everyone has to like it.
Your whole response is bullshit. You inject a reason that blizzard is implementing the RMAH, and you may well be right, but you have no idea, and neither do i. It's very likely it was created for a constant monetary return for the company considering there is no monthly subscription. Who gives a damn. It's in. Accept it.
Your whole response revolves around your opinion that people who pay REAL MONEY don't DESERVE a FICTIONAL FUCKING ITEM? Your logic is ass-backwards. Paying real money for a fictional item is fairly silly to me, but so is paying someone to change my oil. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. IT'S A GAME AND YOU'RE TAKING AN IDEALISTIC APPROACH THAT SOMEHOW IT'S "BAD" AND SOMEONE DOESN'T "DESERVE" AN ITEM IF PAYED FOR WITH MONEY THEY'VE EARNED. YOU HAVE NO MOTHERFUCKING RIGHT TO FORCE THAT LIMITATION ON PEOPLE.
And what exactly was the problem with gaming for fun? There are people who would prefer gaming to be about gaming and not what job you have or how much you can afford.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The funny thing is, people who buy items ARE gaming for fun, they're just enjoying it in another wy. You play the game how you want, shut your mouth, and let others play how they want. I don't usually attack people personally, but when your views cross the line into dictating how other people spend their money/time that warrants some ass chapping.
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To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
There should be an rmah for hardcore. Give the players a safe environment to trade instead of doing it on 3rd party sites. The hurdle for clearing HC inferno isn't gonna be the gear. It's player skill and preparation.
As for losing rmah items...i'm sure there's a reasonable solution to potential issues. I'm fine with items being gone forever. But, if there's some kind of legal hiccup then they could release items back to stash after a timeout period. They could convert lost rmah items to crafting materials. If that isn't acceptable then i'm sure blizzard is clever enough to come up with another solution.
D2 (and a myriad of other old games) is still going, and it doesn't need this aberration called the RMAH. Your argument is false.
I really hope the RMAH will stay out of HC. I really don't like losing my items, but I'm considering playing HC to escape the pervading influence of the root of all evil in my game.
1) D2 requires (probably) much less server space, as the client side computer can run much more of the game.
2) You're right, they don't need to run the RMAH to keep the serves up. Hell, they don't need to sell the game, they could just give it away for free. I have no problem with a COMPANY finding a legitimate way to offset some or all of the cost of allowing me to play.
3) Just how much support has D2 gotten lately? Its quite possible this money will be used to support the game for a longer time, and actually do something about bots/hacks/dupes, unlike the current state of D2.
4) Because they made the game online only (which I feel is justifiable, but that's a debate for another time), they will have PR/legal issues dropping the servers. The RMAH makes it easier to continue to run said servers 10 years from now when they sell like 5 copies a year.
IMO, I don't care if they do bring in the RMAH. I don't care if other people buy great weapons, in PvE or PvP. If I don't want to, I won't. But I can understand why some people might - if Inferno is as hard as they say, you'll probably need the very best equipment, and some people don't have the time to grind for that. These people may want to be able to play in Inferno, and now they can. Combined with the fact that Blizzard isn't selling the items (they take a cut, but they aren't adding items to the economy, which would be very different), I have no issues. If the RMAH wasn't there, most of these items would either be sold in 3rd party forums, or get traded out. Either way, most of these items would still be going to people who didn't "earn" them.
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Not necessarily. Someone that can't create their own bot or has never thought of going out of their way to buy a bot off the black market wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean they won't readily accept the introduction of bot selling on the RMAH.
Similarly with the RMAH in general. Many players didn't buy items from sites in D2, but the RMAH creates incentives for them to do so in D3, so they will. I've already addressed these points anyway.
How about if you saw everyone around you botting while they're not online? How would you feel then?
I know! When did I ever say I didn't have a choice?
For someone like me that lives in a developed country and has a decent - on the side - income rate, selling on the RMAH would be counter-productive, and buying would be very productive. But I don't want to ruin my gaming experience by buying items, and I don't like the fact that Blizzard is presenting all their great deals to me. They're trying to get us to use the RMAH and it's working...
??? Do you even understand how the general population of human psychology works? Can you understand the concept of impulse buying? Can you understand why so many people run to the stores on Black Friday or whatever holiday it is to get cheap deals?
It's more like "oh ok so I've been farming for 10 hours now trying to find item X, but still haven't got it. Oh but look over there, it sells for $20 on the RMAH. I make $20 an hour at work, so obviously buying it will be good use of my time".
*buys the item*
But now I feel dirty...
So in other words you're saying that luck shouldn't be involved in the game? A game where magic find is a big deal, and you don't want luck? How exactly did you think this was equivalent to spending real assets, a commodity IRL that some people have much more of than others. It's pretty much like starting a new game, but not everyone starts on the same playing field. If you are rich and willing to spend it on the RMAH, you're already going to be miles ahead of others. Is this fair? Is it fair to tie in ones real life into their virtual reality life?
Don't people play games to escape the real world sometimes?
No, I believe maka is trying to say that just because something works the way it does in the real world doesn't mean it needs to happen in the game.
I'm quite amazed at your ignorance. Even after all the points I've given, you just shrug them off as if they're invalid. Everyone feels the same way you do huh?
I understand why you want an RMAH, but you can't comprehend why myself and many others don't want it. That speaks volumes about your inability to acknowledge the psychological effects that an RMAH will bring to the table.
Actually, you did:
Source: http://www.diablofan...892#entry793892
Everything you are doing even right this second is real life. Simply controlling a character IS tying your real life actions to the behavior of this virtual reality character and the environment you would have interactions with. The magnitude in which one is "tied" to it is up to the individual. If playing a game is adversely affecting their real life (such as overspending), that is their personal problem that they need to resolve. It is completely ridiculous to oppose HC-RMAH just because someone can't control what they invest into this game.
No, you haven't. You repeatedly fail to establish a fair reason why it is so wrong for a person to spend their own real money on virtual goods as they would choose.
Buying a piece of loot for real money absolutely does not have the same impact on the game experience that automating all Player Character actions would as you are suggesting. "Everyone online is a bot" is FAR different from "Oh, little Jimmy over there paid $5 for that sword." FAR different...
Because you keep saying you would be tempted thereby implying that your uncontrollable compulsion would override your preferred rational choice and that it is an unfavorable "psychological effect". I'm here to inform you that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
I'm here to inform you (again) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
Acutally, yes. I do. It is the same thing that raised a girl on Chicken McNuggets until the age of 17: http://www.dailymail...gets-age-2.html . Between the propaganda her parents received "Hey, cheap fast meal for the kids!", the propaganda she was surely exposed to "Hey kids, Chicken McNuggets are good and you get a toy in your Happy Meal!", and presumeably her parents' weak and/or ignorant parenting skills were highly pursuasive and a bad combination for the girl. But by your reasoning, McDonalds should not be allowed to exist because their "psychological effects" had this (presumeably) unfavorable result from so much purchasing (and subsequent consumption) of the Chicken McNuggets. I'm here to inform you (Yes! Again!) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
*clears throat* Ahem. I'm here to inform you (for the fourth time) that your inability to keep your hand out of the cookie jar is an unfair reason to deprive everyone else that can control themselves the benefits and enjoyment of a HC-RMAH.
No. By asking this, you are implying that the HC-RMAH will irradicate luck. It will not.
The very basis of Diablo's looting system is based on a form of random number generation. Luck will always be a factor.
You are suggesting that everyones' proverbial "Point A" start in the same place and that the means to reach "Point B" remain the same as well or else that is not fair. If you're worrying about any sort of world-first achievements, I have another news flash for you: Items are only generated when a PLAYER causes them to generate such as when they kill a monster or open a box. So it is impossible to buy your way to the top before others that actually farmed up the gear because the genuine players will have already dumped the rest of their extra gear into the AH's after they got all of their world-firsts. They're the ones putting the first BiS loot into the AH in the first place! How the hell else would it be purchaseable? You cannot outpace or outplay genuine skill simply by purchasing loot. It is impossible.
Also, we are all inherently on an "uneven playing field" from the start. You have already confessed to making a steady income. Surely, this requires part of your waking hours that you cannot or choose not to divert to Diablo. There are people with a LOT more time on their hands and will divert more time than you to Diablo. Should they not be allowed to play more than you do? Unfortunately, you're going to have to accept that lots of others are going to have much bigger epeens and much sooner than you for lots of different reasons. And others are going to have smaller ones for other reasons some of which are, dare I say, monetary!
For example, it is a monetary reason that the guy down the street can't progress as fast as you despite investing the same (or even more time) because his computer sucks and lags a lot and takes a long time to load whereas yours is amazing and lightning-fast, I'm sure. By your reasoning, Blizzard should deprive everyone else greater enjoyment by lowering the detail of the game altogether to reduce the system load so that you and the hoboe down the street are on even terms. Once again, I must point out that you are utilizing unfair, unbalanced reasoning.
And one last note: I keep bringing up that your opinion would serve to deprive everyone else. Well, it would. You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be ignoring the consequences everyone else would have to endure in this case as a result of your personal problem of having no self-control. That reasoning of yours is selfish and faulty when applied in this case which is a community-wide issue, not a personal account setting of some kind. If there were to be no HC-RMAH because of your opinion, then there would be no HC-RMAH for anyone. That result would be highly unbalanced and unfair to the community as a whole because self-control is a factor that is subjective to a given individual, not an entire group of people.
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It is a monetary (real-life asset) reason that the guy down the street can't progress as fast as you despite investing the same (or even more time) because his computer sucks and lags a lot and takes a long time to load whereas yours is amazing and lightning-fast, I'm sure. (Déjà vu?) Real-life circumstances already play a huge role in a player's progression. Having a faster computer IS leveraging real-life assets...
No, he's saying that I am saying "let's bring marketing (i.e. HC-RMAH) into the environment in which we intend to escape it". But then he goes on "...that's using your head." which is sarcastic. That is communicating what the opposite is of what he percieves my logic to be and therefore imply that I correct my faulty logic by doing the opposite of what he has accused me of which is to NOT bring in RMAH which is an active inaction. So yes, he is saying that saying "no" is the appropriate "way to use your head".
No, your points are not invalid. They are simply faulty. If I was shrugging you off as invalid, I would have accused you of trolling by now. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. I'm just telling you yours is very flawed.
When exactly did this occur?
No, I comprehend them just fine. I'm simply informing you they are flawed and unfair as well as why they are flawed and unfair.
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Buying a lvl 60 in HC would be dumb, but items, sure, whatever.
Also, HC will always be creating a demand and item sink. Once a character dies, the items die with him. In normal mode, its only a matter of time before there are 5000 of each item on the AH since everyone has the best in slot all ready. HC will always have a demand for new items.
I don't like the RMAH, but I've come to terms with it. I know blizzard wouldn't be able to stop all item selling, and that it would happen regardless. But the fact that their solution is making it a part of the game, really takes away from games being games. When you cant find an item with out thinking how much money I can make off it, or seeing someone with good gear but you can't tell if they bought it or actually got it. Sure you couldn't tell for diablo 2, but at least it wasn't encouraged by the game itself.
It really does impact everyone that chooses not to partake in the RMAH, because everyone who finds a near perfect item is going to think would they rather have some amount of gold, or another 50$ in their pocket for playing a game. The money auction house will most definitely be filled with all the best gear, while the gold auction house will have a fraction of what you see in comparison. People who buy gear will be rolling around in options, while people who don't have money to spend will take what they can get from the gold auction house and drops. In the end you buy power, its no different from buying achievements or buying something that should be prestigious. All those prestigious things lose their value, and the people who actually get it will go for the most part unnoticed. Obviously I can't say that's garunteed how it will be, but it's all fair assumptions.
I plan on sticking to solo play and exclusively with friends to avoid the RMAH at all costs, but hey to each their own and hope the people who put money into the items get some fun out of it. Hey maybe in the end the RMAH will make blizzard loads of money and they will put out tons of content outside the release and expansions and the game will be even better than we could have thought because of the RMAH.
Am very much of the same opinions...it is very sad to see Diablo 3 being monetised and I can't help but feel Blizzard did so with the main goal of ensuring both a steady stream of income to pay for future running costs, as well as make money in general.
The excuse of 'but it'll happen unofficially anyway' is convenient, but nonsensical justification. Just like doping or match-fixing has no place in RL competitive sport, RL money should have no place in this kind of gaming...it goes against the core values of what gaming is. Your success or progress should not be determined or influenced by how much you can afford.
I can only similarly hope that blizzard puts some of the money they make into improvements to the game and I very much do NOT want to see the RMAH coming to hardcore (although I have a feeling the money making potential is too strong for them to hold out for long).
How is this any different then being good at trading in D2? In one situation you take advantage of what you have in the game to get more things in the game by knowing what is valuable and what is not. In the other you take something from outside of the game to get more things.
I mean, D2 is over ten years old now, and I still fire up a copy for some fun every now and again. Will you be playing D3 in 2 years time? 5 years? 10 years?
I actually look at the RMAH as a cool thing for a long term player. Hardcore especially. Not so you can cheat your way to the top, but so you can sell some of that random crap that you don't want. I also think that I probably will buy a few items from the RMAH. Not now, no way. But in 3 years time, when I've finished the game with every character class (including expansions) and want to try out some of those really wacky builds that require some pretty specific items to actually work.
There is also the fact of those legendary items that are just too cool to not pass down. Sure, you can just give them to someone, or even sell them in the game gold auction house, but selling them for real cash would be fun as well. If it was a feature in D2, how much do you think a +3RS, +3SM, +2AD, 1 socket (jewel of envy from memory) wand would be worth for for a necro in the RMAH? I had one that I passed down to a mate after using it for my necro, and he passed it to his friend, who then sold it for some gems (the git). You could use it at level one, and it would probably be your wand for half the game. Sometimes I would be happy to buy a wand like this to jump start a character, it just let's you fly through a lot of the initial stuff, but I'd be happier to sell it for a bit of real cash after my character had used them up. I'd be even more happy if the had the name-your-item quest in D3, so everyone would know you got it legit, but someone else bought it. Then you could have some heirloom style items, non-unique/non-runeword items, that slowly build up their own rep. Especially with youTUBE vids etc. I'd be pleased as punch if I saw my items stomping the ubers in a video.
I guess what I'm saying, is what's the harm in selling some items? You don't have to buy any if you don't want to. I'm not talking chinese-game-farms where it will be your (and some very cheap worker's) main source of income, just a way of getting a bit of cash that you'll mostly use to buy other stuff later-on for niche character builds. What's the difference from trading in game or any other form of jump starting characters. It's hard not to in public games, or even private ones. Is having a healer along in your party cheating? It helped you heaps. Have you broken some strange arcane rule of harcore hardcoreness? What if you were the healing orientated character? Or a buffer/de-buffer? Have you totally destroyed other character's 'l33t skills and rep in HC? No? You still grabbed a character boost and probably ran through a couple of acts really quickly and easily. You didn't use RL cash, you didn't pay anyone. You horrible slave driver, you. What's worse? Paying someone for their time or not? Laughing at cashed up RMAH buyers dieing early on? Having elitist views of just how the game should be played regardless of the reality of the matter? It's hard to say what is worse............... They're all pretty insignificant and merely an end user's viewpoint.
Let's get down to another fact as well. Blizzard has become HUGE since the days of D2. WOW gave them the idea that people will pay to play, but in return they'll keep the game going, forever if necessary, as long as the cash keeps rolling in. We WANT them to have a revenue stream from D3. Or else they won't do squat to support it. I'd like to still be playing D3 in a few years to come, even if it did take a RMAH tax on some of the HC items I hocked to get another expansion/bug-fix-release/server support in five years time.
It effects no one. It doesn't "hurt" the appearance of HC by any means. Who cares if someone doesn't have 40 hours a week to play the game and hit end game without a little help? Does it honestly effect you? Are you that sad that it would?
Agreed.
It's like Casino, you pay so and so to get so and so...or to loose so and so.
Meanwhile, your friend is at home enjoy playing games.
You both in the same world, but live it differently, no hurt feelings.
Hardcore is like real life, you can buy and cheat all you want to. But dude, if you are dead, say goodbye.
Are you that sad that you can't enjoy playing a game like Diablo without having to resort to your wallet for an advantage?
People that like having good gear but don't actually like playing the game to get it (which is arguably what Diablo is all about), need to rethink why they are interested in this game.
Games are about having fun. Beyond the intial cost to buy the game, leave money out of it.
Furthermore, I'll be glad to take their money so I can sit on my ass and play more Diablo 3.
Everybody wins except the idealist who thinks it's somehow inherently wrong to spend money on a game or for a player to make money off of a game. Actually the idealist wins too, because once he realizes there's no downside to a system where people spend real cash to in effect support a community of hardcore gamers be able to play the game they love even more he will accept the system wholeheartedly.
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That's their problem. This may be a revelation to your rude ass, but sometimes you can't have everything you want. Rare items are rare for a reason.
What makes you think that those people are somehow entitled to better gear or an easier time getting gear than the people who ARE playing the game?
The whole point of Diablo is getting items. If you find yourself disliking playing the game so much that you feel the need to pay money to skip bits of it, then you are doing it wrong, or maybe need to find another game.
And what exactly was the problem with gaming for fun? There are people who would prefer gaming to be about gaming and not what job you have or how much you can afford.
Do you think that Blizzard went to great efforts trying to stop RMT's in Diablo2 and WoW because they felt like it, or because they thought banning accounts was fun? It's because it gives people an unfair advantage and fundamentally goes against what multiplayer gaming should be.
The reason for the policy shift now is simply because they are resigned to not being able to stop it, and so decided to at least capitalise on it (and hopefully yes, some benefit will flow back in) and make it safer for people who need instant gratification without effort.
It doesn't mean it's an ideal solution or that everyone has to like it.
Your whole response revolves around your opinion that people who pay REAL MONEY don't DESERVE a FICTIONAL FUCKING ITEM? Your logic is ass-backwards. Paying real money for a fictional item is fairly silly to me, but so is paying someone to change my oil. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. IT'S A GAME AND YOU'RE TAKING AN IDEALISTIC APPROACH THAT SOMEHOW IT'S "BAD" AND SOMEONE DOESN'T "DESERVE" AN ITEM IF PAYED FOR WITH MONEY THEY'VE EARNED. YOU HAVE NO MOTHERFUCKING RIGHT TO FORCE THAT LIMITATION ON PEOPLE.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The funny thing is, people who buy items ARE gaming for fun, they're just enjoying it in another wy. You play the game how you want, shut your mouth, and let others play how they want. I don't usually attack people personally, but when your views cross the line into dictating how other people spend their money/time that warrants some ass chapping.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
As for losing rmah items...i'm sure there's a reasonable solution to potential issues. I'm fine with items being gone forever. But, if there's some kind of legal hiccup then they could release items back to stash after a timeout period. They could convert lost rmah items to crafting materials. If that isn't acceptable then i'm sure blizzard is clever enough to come up with another solution.
1) D2 requires (probably) much less server space, as the client side computer can run much more of the game.
2) You're right, they don't need to run the RMAH to keep the serves up. Hell, they don't need to sell the game, they could just give it away for free. I have no problem with a COMPANY finding a legitimate way to offset some or all of the cost of allowing me to play.
3) Just how much support has D2 gotten lately? Its quite possible this money will be used to support the game for a longer time, and actually do something about bots/hacks/dupes, unlike the current state of D2.
4) Because they made the game online only (which I feel is justifiable, but that's a debate for another time), they will have PR/legal issues dropping the servers. The RMAH makes it easier to continue to run said servers 10 years from now when they sell like 5 copies a year.
IMO, I don't care if they do bring in the RMAH. I don't care if other people buy great weapons, in PvE or PvP. If I don't want to, I won't. But I can understand why some people might - if Inferno is as hard as they say, you'll probably need the very best equipment, and some people don't have the time to grind for that. These people may want to be able to play in Inferno, and now they can. Combined with the fact that Blizzard isn't selling the items (they take a cut, but they aren't adding items to the economy, which would be very different), I have no issues. If the RMAH wasn't there, most of these items would either be sold in 3rd party forums, or get traded out. Either way, most of these items would still be going to people who didn't "earn" them.