its like... i used to love my old shitty car with 50 HP, and now i am angry that my new car only has 500 HP IT NEEDS 1892908290371482749274 HP........ AT LEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!
People have tried to word the above point at least 6 different ways today, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Totaly agree.
Let's break it down.
1. OP says PvP was an essential part of D2 and talks about how great the experience was.
2. The great PvP experience mentioned in Diablo II was essentually an afterthought, and the game was never specifically balanced for it.
3. Diablo 3 also has PvM prioritized balance, but instead of being an afterthought, PvP gets match-making and arenas.
4 Somehow, the argument is that they need to balance the game toward PvP to get an experience equal to Diablo II, which was NOT specifically balanced for PvP.
holding personal subjective opinions for facts = the worst kind
pvp being the major focus of d2 endgame? Some people might have done that, but there were NO system in place to support it.
It was mostly hackers going around pking, and a niche group of players who dueled with builds requiring to press 1 button.
Fucking this.
D2 pvp was stupid nonsense compared to any game designed for pvp interaction and balance. Diablo has never been that game and demanding that it should be is saying they should make diablo into something its not. You guys demanding diablo be an esport need to go play different games. This was never going to be that game, even from it's inception. It has never been that game. So why in the flying fuck are "PVEers ruining the game" for you?
Couldn't agree more. It's truly unfortunate that all of these carebear nerds, that only PvE, are making it so difficult for this game to be great.
This game has such great potential, but it seems like a big chunk of the community are so determined to hold it back.
If you don't PvP, go play world of warcraft or league of legends, or whatever other casual game you enjoy, and leave the discussion to the hardcore community.
The ESport mentality has turned every game it has endorsed, from a decent game, into an amazing game. That is the power of competitive gaming. It is a blessing, not a curse.
Thanks
Signed by PvP enthusiasts everywhere
Have you read ANYTHING that we've been posting? Heck...how about reading your OWN post...You yourself say that the community wants the game to be focused on PvE instead of PvP. Why would Blizzard focus on PvP when the majority of their community wants them to focus on PvE?
The Diablo series has never been focused on PvP and won't be now either. Deal with it or don't buy the game.
Couldn't agree more. It's truly unfortunate that all of these carebear nerds, that only PvE, are making it so difficult for this game to be great.
This game has such great potential, but it seems like a big chunk of the community are so determined to hold it back.
If you don't PvP, go play world of warcraft or league of legends, or whatever other casual game you enjoy, and leave the discussion to the hardcore community.
The ESport mentality has turned every game it has endorsed, from a decent game, into an amazing game. That is the power of competitive gaming. It is a blessing, not a curse.
Thanks
Signed by PvP enthusiasts everywhere
Have you read ANYTHING that we've been posting? Heck...how about reading your OWN post...You yourself say that the community wants the game to be focused on PvE instead of PvP. Why would Blizzard focus on PvP when the majority of their community wants them to focus on PvE?
The Diablo series has never been focused on PvP and won't be now either. Deal with it or don't buy the game.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
Actually, you're wrong. The majority of PvE players wouldn't have a reason to even post here because they are getting what they want, nice PvE and casual PvP. Those of us being vocal like discussions and wish to try explain WHY eSport PvP isn't practical. Even in Diablo 2 right now, elite PvP is the minority. This is year and years after the majority of old PvE focused players have left the game. That should tell you that the PvP community is VERY small compared to the PvE. The reason the PvP community is being so vocal now is they are upset that they aren't getting what they want, despite the game never being intended to be that way.
Guys, can we get back on topic and stop resorting to insulting each other? All this will do is potentially get this thread locked. If you want to be able to continue to discuss this topic, I suggest actually posting constructive reasons for your side instead of insults.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
Actually, you're wrong. The majority of PvE players wouldn't have a reason to even post here because they are getting what they want, nice PvE and casual PvP. Those of us being vocal like discussions and wish to try explain WHY eSport PvP isn't practical. Even in Diablo 2 right now, elite PvP is the minority. This is year and years after the majority of old PvE focused players have left the game. That should tell you that the PvP community is VERY small compared to the PvE. The reason the PvP community is being so vocal now is they are upset that they aren't getting what they want, despite the game never being intended to be that way.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
I do not want this to be a 100% PvP focused game. I love the other aspects of the game as well. I do however think PvP is a large part of the end game for Diablo and should be supported, balanced for, and given a lot more attention.
In 4-5 years time; sure. You can have your PvP balance. But the end game that you keep rattling on about is a creation from MMO's.
Games don't NEED an endgame. Games can just have an end. Luckily for us; hack 'n' slash rpg's do have the loot whoring aspect which makes for an exciting end game. As well as perfect HC runs on all 5 classes. However that in itself is your end game, your goal. Getting to that point.
Beyond that, casual PvP or more likely, not playing too much until the next bit of PvE content. Something PvPers keep ignoring is that Blizzard have LIMITED RESOURCES!!! Any amount of time spent trying to balance or improve PvP is time taken away from devotion to getting the next batch of PvE content out. Yes they may have seperate teams but budget and man power will only stretch so far.
Look at SC2 - they focused so hard on making a PvP game; that the Single player falls a little short with a lot of filler missions because the game is primarily a PvP game. I do not want this to happen to Diablo thanks.
SC2 Campaign sucked because they had too many people working on PvP content? What? You can't be serious.. How does that even make sense. All of their RTS previously were balanced and had GREAT CAMPAIGNS! Like the best. Those were awesome storylines and they were made when Blizzard was a much smaller company. They were great online PvP games too. To say they don't have the resources is just a joke to me. To say that's why SC2 campaign failed is a joke as well. Blizzard is a changing company and is not what they used to be and that's the reason why we don't get a product like we used too.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
So, you're attempting to explain why PvP is important by insulting the people you want to sway...awesome idea.
If the majority of PvP players have left D2 and the majority of PvE players have left D2...then shouldn't the fact that people still prefer PvE over PvP there say something? Blizzard themselves wants D3 focused on PvE. The vocal majority wants D3 focused on PvE. How can you rationalize Blizzard focusing on PvP when the majority of input they get says to focus on PvE?
I've not been trolling, I've been actually explaining the methods, reasons, and such as to why Blizzard made the choice they did. The ones that seem more like they are tolling are those like yourself that seemingly ignore the reasons and shout that Blizzard is bad if they don't make eSport PvP.
If you don't want the PvP that Blizzard plans on offering...and you don't care to enjoy the game purely for PvE...don't buy the game. I know that I for one will be glad to not having to play with people complaining about PvP constantly as I enjoy the game for what it is and has always been, PvE.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
So, you're attempting to explain why PvP is important by insulting the people you want to sway...awesome idea.
If the majority of PvP players have left D2 and the majority of PvE players have left D2...then shouldn't the fact that people still prefer PvE over PvP there say something? Blizzard themselves wants D3 focused on PvE. The vocal majority wants D3 focused on PvE. How can you rationalize Blizzard focusing on PvP when the majority of input they get says to focus on PvE?
I've not been trolling, I've been actually explaining the methods, reasons, and such as to why Blizzard made the choice they did. The ones that seem more like they are tolling are those like yourself that seemingly ignore the reasons and shout that Blizzard is bad if they don't make eSport PvP.
If you don't want the PvP that Blizzard plans on offering...and you don't care to enjoy the game purely for PvE...don't buy the game. I know that I for one will be glad to not having to play with people complaining about PvP constantly as I enjoy the game for what it is and has always been, PvE.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
See, I'm not paranoid about eSports. I know Blizzard's stance on the issue, so what do I have to be paranoid about? I've given you the reasons WHY eSports aren't something that Blizzard can reasonably do at this point. Surely in 4-5 years when the PvE content has lost interest, they could devote resources to it. It'd change the game quite extensively though, so the likelihood is that they would be better off making a new game instead.
The minority is the PvP crowd though. Its very evident. Most of the PvP crowd are also part of the PvE crowd as well. PvP will exist in D3 as well, so only those that feel a need for elite eSport PvP are actually complaining. Those are a minority in a minority. Not a large enough group for Blizzard to make any design decisions based on.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
Actually, you're wrong. The majority of PvE players wouldn't have a reason to even post here because they are getting what they want, nice PvE and casual PvP. Those of us being vocal like discussions and wish to try explain WHY eSport PvP isn't practical. Even in Diablo 2 right now, elite PvP is the minority. This is year and years after the majority of old PvE focused players have left the game. That should tell you that the PvP community is VERY small compared to the PvE. The reason the PvP community is being so vocal now is they are upset that they aren't getting what they want, despite the game never being intended to be that way.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
I don't think the Carebear PvE'ers realize that PvP players also enjoy PvE. I want the game to have a big PvE focus. I am aware it's a big part of the game, I also want PvP to be a focus though because this game isn't WoW. They have the power to balance both, and they should have the resources to do so because Diablo isn't a game that will be forcing out never ending content. It's a story line that starts, and eventually ends. With that being said PvP will eventually take over the game just like it did in D2 and for that reason I want it to be a big part of the game.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out. You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
So, you're attempting to explain why PvP is important by insulting the people you want to sway...awesome idea. If the majority of PvP players have left D2 and the majority of PvE players have left D2...then shouldn't the fact that people still prefer PvE over PvP there say something? Blizzard themselves wants D3 focused on PvE. The vocal majority wants D3 focused on PvE. How can you rationalize Blizzard focusing on PvP when the majority of input they get says to focus on PvE? I've not been trolling, I've been actually explaining the methods, reasons, and such as to why Blizzard made the choice they did. The ones that seem more like they are tolling are those like yourself that seemingly ignore the reasons and shout that Blizzard is bad if they don't make eSport PvP. If you don't want the PvP that Blizzard plans on offering...and you don't care to enjoy the game purely for PvE...don't buy the game. I know that I for one will be glad to not having to play with people complaining about PvP constantly as I enjoy the game for what it is and has always been, PvE.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't . It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
STOP SAYING ESPORTS OH MY GOD! I said it once as a reference on how it would be good for the game (because it would be). Get off that god damn one word. Ladder doesn't = eSports. Ladder = a place common casuals can be competitive.
STOP SAYING ESPORTS OH MY GOD! I said it once as a reference on how it would be good for the game (because it would be). Get off that god damn one word. Ladder doesn't = eSports. Ladder = a place common casuals can be competitive.
See, you're not getting what I'm trying to explain...or you're ignoring it. The reason ladders and rankings cannot be implemented is because it would be a direction towards eSports. It would create a situation where Blizzard would be pressured by tournaments and such to balance the game around the ladders and rankings. It essentially would force Blizzard's hand in making the game an eSport focused game. Since Blizzard does not want PvP design controlling PvE design, they chose to stay away from eSport features in D3.
Honestly, I am not a PvPer. That said, I do find it kind of disheartening that PvP being one of the big things they were trying to sell Diablo 3 on will not be included on launch. Is this a huge deal? It obviously depends on who you ask. Though I feel if it is patched in shortly after people start reaching level 60, it won't be such a big loss. But being Blizzard, who knows how long it will take to be patched in. If it's three months after launch, is it too little too late? I don't think I can answer that, myself.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
I don't think anyone's paranoid about esports. I think most people would be fine with Diablo working as an esport, if it didn't interfere with the main function of the game. Diablo games have always historically been designed as hack and slash action RPGs.
But there are serious obstacles to making it an esport. Character strength is decided as much by gear choices as by skill. That is a mark against making it a sport. Most serious competitive games are skill oriented. The fact that you can buy gear for real money makes it even a worse candidate as an esport. No one is going to take an esport seriously where the outcome can be largely determined by money instead of skill. Plus the characters themselves are geared for PvM balance. There's no way to take those same characters and give them esport level PvP balance, without giving some of the skills completely different stats and behaviors.
The Diablo series has never been designed to be an esport. When you ask for it to be one, you're not asking for the continuation of a strong PvP oriented tradition. You are instead asking them to totally change the focus of a long standing series, to match your personal expectations. The game is going to be a hack and slash RPG, with added PvP elements, like its predecessors.
That is not due to the whining of some "ignorant vocal minority." It is what the game was always designed to be, and what the series always has been.
STOP SAYING ESPORTS OH MY GOD! I said it once as a reference on how it would be good for the game (because it would be). Get off that god damn one word. Ladder doesn't = eSports. Ladder = a place common casuals can be competitive.
See, you're not getting what I'm trying to explain...or you're ignoring it. The reason ladders and rankings cannot be implemented is because it would be a direction towards eSports. It would create a situation where Blizzard would be pressured by tournaments and such to balance the game around the ladders and rankings. It essentially would force Blizzard's hand in making the game an eSport focused game. Since Blizzard does not want PvP design controlling PvE design, they chose to stay away from eSport features in D3.
Do you understand now?
I understand that and even said in previous posts that I understand it. Does that change my opinion of wanting it in the game anyways? Nope. Pushing it towards an eSport is good for the game and even if Blizzard is pressured to make it an eSport or do anything past ladders doesn't matter. There's already pressure to make it an eSport. How about Blizz just grants us this wish and then they can go back to ignoring the PvP community. I'd be happy with that.
People have tried to word the above point at least 6 different ways today, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Totaly agree.
Let's break it down.
1. OP says PvP was an essential part of D2 and talks about how great the experience was.
2. The great PvP experience mentioned in Diablo II was essentually an afterthought, and the game was never specifically balanced for it.
3. Diablo 3 also has PvM prioritized balance, but instead of being an afterthought, PvP gets match-making and arenas.
4 Somehow, the argument is that they need to balance the game toward PvP to get an experience equal to Diablo II, which was NOT specifically balanced for PvP.
5. That is completely illogical.
Fucking this.
D2 pvp was stupid nonsense compared to any game designed for pvp interaction and balance. Diablo has never been that game and demanding that it should be is saying they should make diablo into something its not. You guys demanding diablo be an esport need to go play different games. This was never going to be that game, even from it's inception. It has never been that game. So why in the flying fuck are "PVEers ruining the game" for you?
Have you read ANYTHING that we've been posting? Heck...how about reading your OWN post...You yourself say that the community wants the game to be focused on PvE instead of PvP. Why would Blizzard focus on PvP when the majority of their community wants them to focus on PvE?
The Diablo series has never been focused on PvP and won't be now either. Deal with it or don't buy the game.
Pretty much.
It's not like they are getting arenas or anything.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
Actually, you're wrong. The majority of PvE players wouldn't have a reason to even post here because they are getting what they want, nice PvE and casual PvP. Those of us being vocal like discussions and wish to try explain WHY eSport PvP isn't practical. Even in Diablo 2 right now, elite PvP is the minority. This is year and years after the majority of old PvE focused players have left the game. That should tell you that the PvP community is VERY small compared to the PvE. The reason the PvP community is being so vocal now is they are upset that they aren't getting what they want, despite the game never being intended to be that way.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
SC2 Campaign sucked because they had too many people working on PvP content? What? You can't be serious.. How does that even make sense. All of their RTS previously were balanced and had GREAT CAMPAIGNS! Like the best. Those were awesome storylines and they were made when Blizzard was a much smaller company. They were great online PvP games too. To say they don't have the resources is just a joke to me. To say that's why SC2 campaign failed is a joke as well. Blizzard is a changing company and is not what they used to be and that's the reason why we don't get a product like we used too.
So, you're attempting to explain why PvP is important by insulting the people you want to sway...awesome idea.
If the majority of PvP players have left D2 and the majority of PvE players have left D2...then shouldn't the fact that people still prefer PvE over PvP there say something? Blizzard themselves wants D3 focused on PvE. The vocal majority wants D3 focused on PvE. How can you rationalize Blizzard focusing on PvP when the majority of input they get says to focus on PvE?
I've not been trolling, I've been actually explaining the methods, reasons, and such as to why Blizzard made the choice they did. The ones that seem more like they are tolling are those like yourself that seemingly ignore the reasons and shout that Blizzard is bad if they don't make eSport PvP.
If you don't want the PvP that Blizzard plans on offering...and you don't care to enjoy the game purely for PvE...don't buy the game. I know that I for one will be glad to not having to play with people complaining about PvP constantly as I enjoy the game for what it is and has always been, PvE.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
See, I'm not paranoid about eSports. I know Blizzard's stance on the issue, so what do I have to be paranoid about? I've given you the reasons WHY eSports aren't something that Blizzard can reasonably do at this point. Surely in 4-5 years when the PvE content has lost interest, they could devote resources to it. It'd change the game quite extensively though, so the likelihood is that they would be better off making a new game instead.
The minority is the PvP crowd though. Its very evident. Most of the PvP crowd are also part of the PvE crowd as well. PvP will exist in D3 as well, so only those that feel a need for elite eSport PvP are actually complaining. Those are a minority in a minority. Not a large enough group for Blizzard to make any design decisions based on.
I don't think the Carebear PvE'ers realize that PvP players also enjoy PvE. I want the game to have a big PvE focus. I am aware it's a big part of the game, I also want PvP to be a focus though because this game isn't WoW. They have the power to balance both, and they should have the resources to do so because Diablo isn't a game that will be forcing out never ending content. It's a story line that starts, and eventually ends. With that being said PvP will eventually take over the game just like it did in D2 and for that reason I want it to be a big part of the game.
STOP SAYING ESPORTS OH MY GOD! I said it once as a reference on how it would be good for the game (because it would be). Get off that god damn one word. Ladder doesn't = eSports. Ladder = a place common casuals can be competitive.
See, you're not getting what I'm trying to explain...or you're ignoring it. The reason ladders and rankings cannot be implemented is because it would be a direction towards eSports. It would create a situation where Blizzard would be pressured by tournaments and such to balance the game around the ladders and rankings. It essentially would force Blizzard's hand in making the game an eSport focused game. Since Blizzard does not want PvP design controlling PvE design, they chose to stay away from eSport features in D3.
Do you understand now?
Just my little thought bubble.
I don't think anyone's paranoid about esports. I think most people would be fine with Diablo working as an esport, if it didn't interfere with the main function of the game. Diablo games have always historically been designed as hack and slash action RPGs.
But there are serious obstacles to making it an esport. Character strength is decided as much by gear choices as by skill. That is a mark against making it a sport. Most serious competitive games are skill oriented. The fact that you can buy gear for real money makes it even a worse candidate as an esport. No one is going to take an esport seriously where the outcome can be largely determined by money instead of skill. Plus the characters themselves are geared for PvM balance. There's no way to take those same characters and give them esport level PvP balance, without giving some of the skills completely different stats and behaviors.
The Diablo series has never been designed to be an esport. When you ask for it to be one, you're not asking for the continuation of a strong PvP oriented tradition. You are instead asking them to totally change the focus of a long standing series, to match your personal expectations. The game is going to be a hack and slash RPG, with added PvP elements, like its predecessors.
That is not due to the whining of some "ignorant vocal minority." It is what the game was always designed to be, and what the series always has been.
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AdministratorI understand that and even said in previous posts that I understand it. Does that change my opinion of wanting it in the game anyways? Nope. Pushing it towards an eSport is good for the game and even if Blizzard is pressured to make it an eSport or do anything past ladders doesn't matter. There's already pressure to make it an eSport. How about Blizz just grants us this wish and then they can go back to ignoring the PvP community. I'd be happy with that.
There's why the PvE community shouldn't care about what you want, either. You see how that works?