Hi guys, so, I'm kind of confused right now with how the elemental damage works.
I got a 1k only physical ceremonial knife, no slot, no critical damage, nothing, just 1k physical damage and +200 int, thats all.
Then another one dropped, it had crit damage for 50 and a socket, it had 950 dps. Thing is, after putting a 60+ CD gem into it, my damage only goes up for 700, my CC is 20. But I noticed that this knife had 200-600 poison damage.
So my question is, how does the elemental damage works? its not considered in critical damage calculations or something?
It only makes a difference if you have zuni boots, tal necklace, or some other item with that type of affix ("adds x% to poison damage" or some other elemental damage type).
If you have one of those items, then a weapon with elemental damage actually is worse than an equivalent weapon with all physical damage because that affix basically adds that amount of damage to your physical damage only.
Well, I can only say that for some reason an almost identical ceremonial knife but with only physical damage instead of poison damage gives me 5.6k + damage then my previous one.
In der diablo 2, we called info screen 'ze blue screen of lies', though it actually vas vey BETTER than here. Here, you have a 'dps' number floating in der space, meaning practically nothing.
It is how it's calculated: http: // eu.battle.net/ d3/ en/ forum/ topic/ 4903361857 [remove der spaces]
So, it's ze *some* dps, which ist not correct at all, basically since not all skills (unlike weapon) have der cooldown, and all skills modify dmg or dps (unexplained! but likely both, depending on having ze cooldown or not) for a percentage
This dps, therefore, is incorrect in nature, except if related to a one weapon melee with 100% damage modifier (i guess).
What needs to be done ist to change the 'yellow screen of lies' to list:
- damage and cooldown for each skill, and *then* dps (all of that in 'details' section)
If you *need* to know real dps, then calculate damage, ignore all attack speed modifiers if skill has cooldowns, add in der skill modificators and you're somewhere close. Dat is since you are WD, and not all skills rely on attack speed at all - and ones dat do, don't list it...
What I'm trying to say is that der dps listed is an approximation in crudest vay possible, and +-4.5k means nothing - you have to look at damage done numbers to draw a precise conclusion (and for all skills, unfortunately). Or decide to try ignoring reality and trust Blizzard arbitrary 'dps'.
This is my biggest complaint about data presentation in diablo 3, that's vay i vrote so much...
I have one more question. What happens when let's I have 8% holy dmg on my belt, 8% poison on my boots, 8% fire dmg on my amulet and a poison weapon? How does that work?
According to a recent post that I can't find right now, it's additive, so "only" 24% increased damage. I had the example of a Triumverate (the wizard legendary offhand with 6% lightning, 6% fire and 6% arcane damage or so) and it's not 19% (1.06*1.06*1.06) but 18%.
hmmmm.... it's virtual, as i stated before. +elemental damage works only if skill uses dat particular elemental type, so triumvirate will increase 6% on magic missile (arcane), but not on blizzard (ice). whole elemental thing serves exactly to no purpose, because total damage is wholly converted to a type specified by skill (can be seen easily, since none of the secondary effects are delivered) - posted by blizzard. somewhere. at some point of time.
so triumvirate, apart from 'virtual dps', increases only attacks/spell damage that convert to specific elemental-type damage - basically, damage is increased either by 6%, or nothing... making whole triumvirate or tal rasha thing pretty worthless, as 3% or 6% is same as +60 or +120 int points (for, say 2000 int wizard), only worse... nothing to hop about, anyway
hmmmm.... it's virtual, as i stated before. +elemental damage works only if skill uses dat particular elemental type, so triumvirate will increase 6% on magic missile (arcane), but not on blizzard (ice). whole elemental thing serves exactly to no purpose, because total damage is wholly converted to a type specified by skill (can be seen easily, since none of the secondary effects are delivered) - posted by blizzard. somewhere. at some point of time.
so triumvirate, apart from 'virtual dps', increases only attacks/spell damage that convert to specific elemental-type damage - basically, damage is increased either by 6%, or nothing... making whole triumvirate or tal rasha thing pretty worthless, as 3% or 6% is same as +60 or +120 int points (for, say 2000 int wizard), only worse... nothing to hop about, anyway
Couldn't be more wrong.
There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).
What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).
Let's just say without my Triumvirate (+6% fire, +6% lightning, +5% arcane), Tal Rasha's Allegiance (+6% holy), and Zunimassa's Trail (+8% poison), I would lose 31% of my total DPS output. I use an Echoing Fury, which is a weapon with no elemental affixes attached to it.
If I have an equal weapon-DPS one-hander like Chantodo's Will which does fire damage, I would be royally screwed.
^ you wouldn't be royally screwed, you would just get less added from your bonuses since the +x% dmg only applies to your physical weapon damage and not the fire portion of Chantodo's Will. All weapons have some dmg portion that is not based on elemental damage.
Let's just say without my Triumvirate (+6% fire, +6% lightning, +5% arcane), Tal Rasha's Allegiance (+6% holy), and Zunimassa's Trail (+8% poison), I would lose 31% of my total DPS output. I use an Echoing Fury, which is a weapon with no elemental affixes attached to it.
You may want to compare your skill damage and not character sheet damage:
Set 1 is your current gear
Set 2 is without "adds x% to (arcane|fire|holy|poison|lightning|cold) damage"
Set 3 is without "(arcane|fire|holy|poison|lightning|cold) skills deal x% more damage"
I've compared results from calculators and in-game combat results a while ago. Between a Chantodo's Will + Triumvirate and Echoing Fury + Triumvirate, the average hit of the former is lower (min/max and attack speed is slightly varied), but maxing average hit is what I care about.
There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).
What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).
That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage
It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.
There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).
What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).
That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage
It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.
Let's just say without my Triumvirate (+6% fire, +6% lightning, +5% arcane), Tal Rasha's Allegiance (+6% holy), and Zunimassa's Trail (+8% poison), I would lose 31% of my total DPS output. I use an Echoing Fury, which is a weapon with no elemental affixes attached to it.
If I have an equal weapon-DPS one-hander like Chantodo's Will which does fire damage, I would be royally screwed.
Yepp exactly, the % Bonus damage you get only with so called "Blackweapons", meaning Physical Weapons...
With Elementar Damage Weapons you get a bonus too, but not so much.
Stacking up Bonus Damage is actually quite a significant Damage Boost ;-)
Stone of Jordan got also 6% Bonus... it all adds up.
I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, declare that there isn't any data, blue post or not. The 'dps' as concept is applicable only in weapon situations, and only when cooldown is listed. whatif a skill with cooldown is used and there is 'CCCXV% weapon damage'? Should The God go and sum up all weapon and all other damage sources, min and max, then divide it by two? and then multiply by CCCXV% AND ruling attribute AND bonuses? or game should do it? or rely on arbitrary chosen, often misleading number who claims that know it all? whatare the cooldowns of basic spells? should they be measured individually, or rather listed in tooltips?
[read more on this and other exciting topics, on divine site, updated soon!]
The God declare Bllzzard has to put relevant data on math and game concept on SITE, visible and easy to find by everyone, and NOT partially reveal it through 'blue posts'! Very unprofessional! [The God sighs]
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A proud and fearless leader and only member of the "Save the Diablo III" project I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).
What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).
That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage
It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.
All due respect, I don't think you understand how the "Adds X% as [Element] Damage" affix works.
DPS shows your damage per second if auto-attacking, and the affix above increases your weapon damage, and thus increases the DPS shown.
Aorry for a delay, but in unterland slaves work twice as hard on weekends, so need of supervision is... increased.
Anyway, i agree vit you completely on mechanisms points - and i believe that i never contradicted them. So, i agree with you on how bonus is applied. if i made post looks otherwise, that vas my english.
However, i'm kinda going bit off-topic in this thread - question a usability of sole dps info on char screen.
Here: initially, Blizzard wanted to make elemental bonuses actually work and make a difference depending on kinda weapon is used (even characteristic of elemental damage vas listed). Somewhere in the vay, they said that it's 'too complicated' and reduce them all to mere addition of damage - i guess initially physical part of damage should have been converted to spell effect, and not the elemental one, but they changed it. Yet, the difference between elemental damage value remained? Maybe it will be fixed... in future patch, or expansion.
So, current dps indicator is faulty on many occasions, mainly on skill that have no use of attack speed, or have a substantial cooldown.
Currently, any presence of attack skill, 'boost one's ego' by showing a number different than one that vill be used.
And that's about all I wanted to say - "don't always look at dps and think change is REAL, especially on attack speed matter - every class has cooldown skills that profit zero of attack speed, and player who uses them a lot and masses attack speed is misleaded to think he's stronger than he really is"
I'm still very confused how stuff like "Adds x% to Poison damage" works, I always thought it was basically "Increases your damage by x%", but judging by damage calculator like this, "+dmg %" and "+elemental dmg %" works differently so I'm pretty confused to how it works.
"Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" takes the fraction of your total damage that is physical and adds bonus damage based on that fraction. If you have an all physical weapon, you get that much bonus damage to your dps.
Each bonus damage affix type is multiplicative but bonus damage of the same types are additive. For example, if you have a skill that says "Increases damage by 50%", you multiply your dps without the skill by 1.5 and that's your new dps.
If you have zuni boots with 8% poison damage and a tal neck with 5% cold damage, you gain 13% bonus to your physical damage. With a purely physical weapon, you just multiply your old dps by 1.13 and that's your new dps.
If you have both the ele damage and bonus damage, your new dps is 1.5*1.13 = 1.695 times your base dps, because they are multiplicative of each other. If your weapon has some elemental damage, then you don't gain the full 13%.
Also, all items with "Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" add together for the overall multiplier, like someone mentioned previously, and as I showed above, even if the elemental types are different (like the triumvirate).
EDIT: For those making the argument that the in game dps number doesn't show anything, it's actually almost all the information you need to know about any skill in the game. If you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps. If you want to know the average damage of a skill with yyy% weapon damage, but with a CD, take your DPS number, divide by your attack speed to obtain your average base weapon damage, and multiply that by yyy/100 for your average damage per attack. Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number.
I got a 1k only physical ceremonial knife, no slot, no critical damage, nothing, just 1k physical damage and +200 int, thats all.
Then another one dropped, it had crit damage for 50 and a socket, it had 950 dps. Thing is, after putting a 60+ CD gem into it, my damage only goes up for 700, my CC is 20. But I noticed that this knife had 200-600 poison damage.
So my question is, how does the elemental damage works? its not considered in critical damage calculations or something?
If you have one of those items, then a weapon with elemental damage actually is worse than an equivalent weapon with all physical damage because that affix basically adds that amount of damage to your physical damage only.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
It will increase your base weapon dmg (physical) by 7-8%, which will in turn increase the dmg done with any skill.
Only if you have an item like the ones I mentioned. If you have no such items, then your weapon damage type makes no difference on your dps.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
It is how it's calculated:
http: // eu.battle.net/ d3/ en/ forum/ topic/ 4903361857 [remove der spaces]
So, it's ze *some* dps, which ist not correct at all, basically since not all skills (unlike weapon) have der cooldown, and all skills modify dmg or dps (unexplained! but likely both, depending on having ze cooldown or not) for a percentage
This dps, therefore, is incorrect in nature, except if related to a one weapon melee with 100% damage modifier (i guess).
What needs to be done ist to change the 'yellow screen of lies' to list:
- damage and cooldown for each skill, and *then* dps (all of that in 'details' section)
If you *need* to know real dps, then calculate damage, ignore all attack speed modifiers if skill has cooldowns, add in der skill modificators and you're somewhere close. Dat is since you are WD, and not all skills rely on attack speed at all - and ones dat do, don't list it...
What I'm trying to say is that der dps listed is an approximation in crudest vay possible, and +-4.5k means nothing - you have to look at damage done numbers to draw a precise conclusion (and for all skills, unfortunately). Or decide to try ignoring reality and trust Blizzard arbitrary 'dps'.
This is my biggest complaint about data presentation in diablo 3, that's vay i vrote so much...
According to a recent post that I can't find right now, it's additive, so "only" 24% increased damage. I had the example of a Triumverate (the wizard legendary offhand with 6% lightning, 6% fire and 6% arcane damage or so) and it's not 19% (1.06*1.06*1.06) but 18%.
so triumvirate, apart from 'virtual dps', increases only attacks/spell damage that convert to specific elemental-type damage - basically, damage is increased either by 6%, or nothing... making whole triumvirate or tal rasha thing pretty worthless, as 3% or 6% is same as +60 or +120 int points (for, say 2000 int wizard), only worse... nothing to hop about, anyway
Couldn't be more wrong.
There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).
What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).
If I have an equal weapon-DPS one-hander like Chantodo's Will which does fire damage, I would be royally screwed.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
I've compared results from calculators and in-game combat results a while ago. Between a Chantodo's Will + Triumvirate and Echoing Fury + Triumvirate, the average hit of the former is lower (min/max and attack speed is slightly varied), but maxing average hit is what I care about.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage
It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.
There's tons of data to give more than accurate insight. But there's even more - a bluepost:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6413025317#13
The tooltip is just wrong at the moment.
Yepp exactly, the % Bonus damage you get only with so called "Blackweapons", meaning Physical Weapons...
With Elementar Damage Weapons you get a bonus too, but not so much.
Stacking up Bonus Damage is actually quite a significant Damage Boost ;-)
Stone of Jordan got also 6% Bonus... it all adds up.
[read more on this and other exciting topics, on divine site, updated soon!]
The God declare Bllzzard has to put relevant data on math and game concept on SITE, visible and easy to find by everyone, and NOT partially reveal it through 'blue posts'! Very unprofessional! [The God sighs]
I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
All due respect, I don't think you understand how the "Adds X% as [Element] Damage" affix works.
DPS shows your damage per second if auto-attacking, and the affix above increases your weapon damage, and thus increases the DPS shown.
Aorry for a delay, but in unterland slaves work twice as hard on weekends, so need of supervision is... increased.
Anyway, i agree vit you completely on mechanisms points - and i believe that i never contradicted them. So, i agree with you on how bonus is applied. if i made post looks otherwise, that vas my english.
However, i'm kinda going bit off-topic in this thread - question a usability of sole dps info on char screen.
Here: initially, Blizzard wanted to make elemental bonuses actually work and make a difference depending on kinda weapon is used (even characteristic of elemental damage vas listed). Somewhere in the vay, they said that it's 'too complicated' and reduce them all to mere addition of damage - i guess initially physical part of damage should have been converted to spell effect, and not the elemental one, but they changed it. Yet, the difference between elemental damage value remained? Maybe it will be fixed... in future patch, or expansion.
So, current dps indicator is faulty on many occasions, mainly on skill that have no use of attack speed, or have a substantial cooldown.
Currently, any presence of attack skill, 'boost one's ego' by showing a number different than one that vill be used.
And that's about all I wanted to say - "don't always look at dps and think change is REAL, especially on attack speed matter - every class has cooldown skills that profit zero of attack speed, and player who uses them a lot and masses attack speed is misleaded to think he's stronger than he really is"
"Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" takes the fraction of your total damage that is physical and adds bonus damage based on that fraction. If you have an all physical weapon, you get that much bonus damage to your dps.
Each bonus damage affix type is multiplicative but bonus damage of the same types are additive. For example, if you have a skill that says "Increases damage by 50%", you multiply your dps without the skill by 1.5 and that's your new dps.
If you have zuni boots with 8% poison damage and a tal neck with 5% cold damage, you gain 13% bonus to your physical damage. With a purely physical weapon, you just multiply your old dps by 1.13 and that's your new dps.
If you have both the ele damage and bonus damage, your new dps is 1.5*1.13 = 1.695 times your base dps, because they are multiplicative of each other. If your weapon has some elemental damage, then you don't gain the full 13%.
Also, all items with "Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" add together for the overall multiplier, like someone mentioned previously, and as I showed above, even if the elemental types are different (like the triumvirate).
EDIT: For those making the argument that the in game dps number doesn't show anything, it's actually almost all the information you need to know about any skill in the game. If you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps. If you want to know the average damage of a skill with yyy% weapon damage, but with a CD, take your DPS number, divide by your attack speed to obtain your average base weapon damage, and multiply that by yyy/100 for your average damage per attack. Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard