That's an interesting statement. So what was the endgame in D2 that they could try to reimplement into D3 (with their own twist obviously)?
Players made their own end-game.
So basically, there was no end-game, other than your own made-up imagination-land endgame. And D3 is different how?
That you can't do whatever you want. Especially in RoS.
Ok I'm still trying to understand the difference between D2's end-game and D3ROS' endgame.
D2 had pvp like D3's brawling, except you looted the corpses and it was anywhere, not just the arena. That would be freaking epic.
D2 had boss runs, D3ROS has rifts and bounties. That seems a bit better than before, but would be even better if they made act bosses equally 'efficient'.
D2 had trading, D3ROS has none.
What was the end-game where you set up rules for yourself? Like what were the rules? Would it be possible to make a game mode where you set up your own rules from a list of different ones, and you could play in that ruleset with your clan. Maybe each clan simply has a permanent ruleset only changeable by vote.
@Shaggy - You are forgetting something important about D2 vs D3: Diablo 2 wiped your accounts every 90 days of inactivity.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
In Diablo 3s case, items in circulation- stay in circulation. Once you gear up, you never have to again. As Blizzard has said, trading short circuits what is intended to be the game life cycle.
I plan on buying the ps4 version for multiple reasons, but included is the replayability inherent in a complete reset. If I leave the game for a while, only to come back to my OP in a day geared account (from trading/ah/3rd party sites)... I have nothing further to do.
Plain and fricking simple... trading breaks the games INTENDED life cycle. It causes the INTENDED end game of the item hunt to be short circuitable via economic trading or twinking.
No, predefined rule-sets are set into stone and final. That's not custom anymore. They just should have solved the problems from D3V without adding new restrictions.
Do you think an arcade style pvp would be cool? Basically it would be like blizzcon 2010 pvp but you didn't play with your character, just from a choice of like 10 precreated characters?
@Shaggy - You are forgetting something important about D2 vs D3: Diablo 2 wiped your accounts every 90 days of inactivity.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
And you're forgetting that RoS has the enchanter.... which does what again?
Right, takes the *desireable* items out of the economy when you enchant them. The problem with D3C was that there wasn't a shred of an item sink. That inflated the effect of trading because it allowed people to "rent" items. This simply won't be the case in RoS by and large. Furthermore, in RoS, you have to crush down two legendaries every time you enchant one. Even without enchanting making the item BoA, this is an infinitely better item sink than anything we have in D3C.
The effects of the AH would be much less dramatized and severe if we actually had item sinks in D3 which seems to be something they're actually addressing in RoS, which further emphasizes why BoA tags all over everything simply aren't necessary. People have been bitching about this for over a year, though. Let's not pretend as if it isn't a compounding problem and let's not pretend as if it hasn't been mostly addressed in RoS.
Why do people trade in D3C? Because they feel it's the only way to "succeed." That alone should clue you in that trading isn't the problem, much like the AH, but a symptom of drop rates, loot, and crafting that just don't work synergistically to give the player a good experience... so they go to the next-best thing: AH/trade.
If I had a dollar for every poster on these very forums who said they have used the AH because they felt they had no alternative, even though they really don't want to... I'd be able to retire. Let's not pretend like the average AH-user is some kind of trade-addicted heroin junky who can't kick their habit here.
The average AH-user is someone who has turned to the AH because they haven't found their own gear in a reasonable amount of time. This is precisely why you still need trading as a safety net. The game becomes frustrating if you can't find what you feel you need. This was a recurring problem with D3C design that made so many people feel forced into the AH. Taking the safety net away means you're being ignorant of why people want that safety net there in the first place.
Yet you keep quoting and responding.
There's a name for that, but I don't wanna get two infractions in one day.
Someone just had to point out the irony in your statement. On one hand, purposefully almost quoting Blizzard about the item-hunt being the most fun way to play the game as if it were somehow working in favour of your argument (which it isn't - hence the changes Blizzard is making), and on the other - propagating that item hunt itself remains the most inefficient way to acquire items (RMT trumps all, end of story).
@Shaggy - You are forgetting something important about D2 vs D3: Diablo 2 wiped your accounts every 90 days of inactivity.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
In Diablo 3s case, items in circulation- stay in circulation. Once you gear up, you never have to again. As Blizzard has said, trading short circuits what is intended to be the game life cycle.
I plan on buying the ps4 version for multiple reasons, but included is the replayability inherent in a complete reset. If I leave the game for a while, only to come back to my OP in a day geared account (from trading/ah/3rd party sites)... I have nothing further to do.
Plain and fricking simple... trading breaks the games INTENDED life cycle. It causes the INTENDED end game of the item hunt to be short circuitable via economic trading or twinking.
So, you're telling me if trading was enabled on the PS4 version you just would lack any sort of control to play the game without trading? You can't play self-found on your own volition? You need to be forced to play self-found otherwise you just can't help yourself?
The only person the "life cycle" should matter to is the individual person who bought the game. They are the one who spent $60 on the game. This isn't a subscription based game, it doesn't matter to Blizzard (and shouldn't matter to your neighbor) if you play 200 hours or 4000 hours. If someone wants to trade and cut down their "life cycle" to 20 hours ... well then that is their choice.
I really think what everyone should be more focused on is whether or not the game itself actually fun to play or not. Because if it sucks, it doesn't matter if the "life cycle" is 6000 hours or 10 ... the game still sucks.
@Shaggy - You are forgetting something important about D2 vs D3: Diablo 2 wiped your accounts every 90 days of inactivity.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
In Diablo 3s case, items in circulation- stay in circulation. Once you gear up, you never have to again. As Blizzard has said, trading short circuits what is intended to be the game life cycle.
I plan on buying the ps4 version for multiple reasons, but included is the replayability inherent in a complete reset. If I leave the game for a while, only to come back to my OP in a day geared account (from trading/ah/3rd party sites)... I have nothing further to do.
Plain and fricking simple... trading breaks the games INTENDED life cycle. It causes the INTENDED end game of the item hunt to be short circuitable via economic trading or twinking.
So, you're telling me if trading was enabled on the PS4 version you just would lack any sort of control to play the game without trading? You can't play self-found on your own volition? You need to be forced to play self-found otherwise you just can't help yourself?
The only person the "life cycle" should matter to is the individual person who bought the game. They are the one who spent $60 on the game. This isn't a subscription based game, it doesn't matter to Blizzard (and shouldn't matter to your neighbor) if you play 200 hours or 4000 hours. If someone wants to trade and cut down their "life cycle" to 20 hours ... well then that is their choice.
I really think what everyone should be more focused on is whether or not the game itself actually fun to play or not. Because if it sucks, it doesn't matter if the "life cycle" is 6000 hours or 10 ... the game still sucks.
I'm buying the PS4 version for the reset, not because I can't trade. My point was that some people like myself find it boring running the same end game when OP repeatedly... and trading just gets you there much faster.
Video games are not all sandboxes, and while Diablo 3 may give you some elements of freedom, video games (just like a book or movie) are created with a particular vision in mind. Even board games have rules created to define their particular vision.
And actually, it DOES matter to Blizzard as they have EXPLICITLY said it matters to them (fail argument on your part).
Lastly, I completely understand the fact that Blizzard never intended the game to be played for 1000+ hours in a year and a half. But that doesn't change the fact that they have a vision of what they want the game to be, and regardless of whether or not you agree, trading brakes that vision.
@Shaggy - You are forgetting something important about D2 vs D3: Diablo 2 wiped your accounts every 90 days of inactivity.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
And you're forgetting that RoS has the enchanter.... which does what again?
Right, takes the *desireable* items out of the economy when you enchant them. The problem with D3C was that there wasn't a shred of an item sink. That inflated the effect of trading because it allowed people to "rent" items. This simply won't be the case in RoS by and large. Furthermore, in RoS, you have to crush down two legendaries every time you enchant one. Even without enchanting making the item BoA, this is an infinitely better item sink than anything we have in D3C.
The effects of the AH would be much less dramatized and severe if we actually had item sinks in D3 which seems to be something they're actually addressing in RoS, which further emphasizes why BoA tags all over everything simply aren't necessary. People have been bitching about this for over a year, though. Let's not pretend as if it isn't a compounding problem and let's not pretend as if it hasn't been mostly addressed in RoS.
Why do people trade in D3C? Because they feel it's the only way to "succeed." That alone should clue you in that trading isn't the problem, much like the AH, but a symptom of drop rates, loot, and crafting that just don't work synergistically to give the player a good experience... so they go to the next-best thing: AH/trade.
If I had a dollar for every poster on these very forums who said they have used the AH because they felt they had no alternative, even though they really don't want to... I'd be able to retire. Let's not pretend like the average AH-user is some kind of trade-addicted heroin junky who can't kick their habit here.
The average AH-user is someone who has turned to the AH because they haven't found their own gear in a reasonable amount of time. This is precisely why you still need trading as a safety net. The game becomes frustrating if you can't find what you feel you need. This was a recurring problem with D3C design that made so many people feel forced into the AH. Taking the safety net away means you're being ignorant of why people want that safety net there in the first place.
I used the AH because I could and it was part of the game. It was no different than buying from an NPC in my mind.
However, if it wasn't for the AH I wouldn't have beaten inferno until after Bashiok's estimate. Ninety percent of the fricking hate on the game was the endgame, which imo wouldn't have been so bad if we all had progressed naturally. Each additional act could have been played like each additional MP is now had the entire playerbase (minus the exploiters) not broken the expected path.
The average AH-user is someone who has turned to the AH because they haven't found their own gear in a reasonable amount of time. This is precisely why you still need trading as a safety net. The game becomes frustrating if you can't find what you feel you need. This was a recurring problem with D3C design that made so many people feel forced into the AH. Taking the safety net away means you're being ignorant of why people want that safety net there in the first place.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - in Vanilla, the "reasonable amount of time" that it should take to find gear was a standard defined by the AH. People felt like they were progressing at a snail's pace because the AH was so much vastly better than finding loot naturally, and it would always have continued to be if they left it in. Removing the AH sets self-found as the new standard for what gear progression should be, and the difficulties are balanced accordingly. And more importantly, we already know they're doing a dozen different things to address the root problem by improving loot drops, rather than "fixing" it by allowing people to circumvent natural loot entirely.
I'm buying the PS4 version for the reset, not because I can't trade. My point was that some people like myself find it boring running the same end game when OP repeatedly... and trading just gets you there much faster.
Video games are not all sandboxes, and while Diablo 3 may give you some elements of freedom, video games (just like a book or movie) are created with a particular vision in mind. Even board games have rules created to define their particular vision.
And actually, it DOES matter to Blizzard as they have EXPLICITLY said it matters to them (fail argument on your part).
Lastly, I completely understand the fact that Blizzard never intended the game to be played for 1000+ hours in a year and a half. But that doesn't change the fact that they have a vision of what they want the game to be, and regardless of whether or not you agree, trading brakes that vision.
My question still stands though, if the PS4 version had trading in it, would you trade, or is the only reason you are not trading due to the inability to do so? I am just trying to understand why there needs to be BOA for item progression when that clearly can be governed by the players by choosing to play self-found own their own.
Also, what else did you expect Blizzard to say other than the obvious PR response regarding how long they want you to enjoy the game?
Truthfully, BoA itself doesn't bother me, as I am playing the game self-found already. I am just trying to understand the opposite side of the argument because I haven't heard any real compelling arguments on why it is necessary to "save" the game.
I am more bothered by the fact that it comes off as a lazy design decision. Sort of like how increasing difficultly in this game just amounts to more mob damage and health. I'd rather have an insanely fun Diablo 3 with an item "life cycle" of 100 hours vs. a Diablo 3 that becomes incredibly dull and repetitive after 20 hours and has an item "life cycle" of 1000 hours.
Oh more people that think friendlist when item drop = trade, is a good idea.
Great! Let Blizz hear us.
People that use bots in D3 aren't welcome on my friendlist. Friends goes first, strangers second.
Making this possible would mean many things.
1. You need that cheater on your friendlist for a great deal of time before you can get what you wanted in the first place, this allows the cheater (read: third-party gold-trolls) to be targeted for extermination.
2. Friends will benefit on helping each other out.
3. Friendlist will only be a legendary-trade-thingy. When it comes to materials, I would like to see what they have now.. The 2 hour window!
4. Clans could have 2 day pending with the items of their choice. Materials included. Materials could then be another economy (value) for trade.
Edit: These ideas was sent to Blizz a few days ago..
I do really like the ideas suggested by OP and the incentive/idea behind it.
Because one thing that is echoing off the walls more and more, is that people are saying that there is a lack of actual happening with the items.
The idea of D3 seems to be - afaik - get items. That's all. What then?
They should look into making some aspects competetive. Because having power without measuring it to something dynamic (another player?!) is pretty darn pointless. Unless that which you fight against also scales dynamically or is tuned so that it stays difficult. Which in the case of D3, is not true at all.
One of the major issues im seeing - is that other games or just mods to D2 already did a better job with just sheer concepts compared to what RoS has delivered so far. Because the very premis of D3 RoS in it self is flawed. Having a "item hunt" - when that item hunt leads to nothing, is pointless.
What mods and games are you referring to specifically? I would like to know since I'm a game designer myself
If some people can't realise that the fun in this game is the hunt for items, and not necessarily having the items in your possession, then that's their loss.
With this statement you are just putting a foot in your mouth in so many ways. What is the goal of hunting for items if not to possess them? What is the goal of trading if not to posses even more items faster? Durr. If all the fun is supposedly in the item hunt then why do you want to trade instead of hunting for items? Durr again.
If anything, you're the one making a fool of yourself. It's clear that you just post and never read anyone else's opinion. My views on this and other subjects are pretty well known to anyone that has bothered to read my posts over time, so don't talk about things you know nothing about.
Where do you get off acting like an jerk? Durr yourself.
Sometimes i'm amazed at the inability of people to understand any point of view except their own--looks at dimebag. all while sounding like the cookie monster or some shit "arggh items, give me all the items, i must possess them, more items!"
Clearly the process of finding items and possessing them are both important and heavily related.
I can completely see both sides arguments, and truth be told I don't know which one is right, or even if there is a right side. I'll try to compile some arguments I've seen multiple times from both sides.
Anti BoA;
Loss of socialization. Yes, with one less way to interact with other players, we defiantly lose a little bit of that.
Your gear is completely up to the rng gods. Yes, it's very likely that it will take you a good amount of time to get every piece for something, and there's no way to susupplement that.
Can't get rid of legendaries you don't want. Correct, even if you found a complete perfect rolled item that you don't want to use, the only thing to do is salvage and sell for the same price as a badly rolled legendary.
Pro BoA;
You can't have your cake and eat it to. With free trading you have a super saturated market just like todays, and you can have every piece of gear you've ever wanted in minutes. Thats if you want to have a viable self found environment. OR, you make self found near impossible to try and compensate. You can't have a non saturated market while at the same time having a playable self found game.
We actually don't lose much socialization. With crafting getting some love, crafting mats, gems, gold and items up to rare quality will be in demand, and trading will still exist.
Blizzard will actually have complete control over the gear pacing of the game. If you have to farm fir every legendary you have, then things like drop rates and stat rolls can be finely tuned.
Self found will actually be viable.
Like I said I don't think the anti BoA crowd is wrong. As a player however I find the BoA route to be more enticing, and as such is the side I choose.
Can't get rid of legendaries you don't want. Correct, even if you found a complete perfect rolled item that you don't want to use, the only thing to do is salvage and sell for the same price as a badly rolled legendary.
Maybe they could make a quick equation giving the legendary a higher price if the rolls are higher to the max.
For example:
A poorly rolled Andariel's Visage can be sold to the vendor for 6k gold (about), and salvaged for 1 orange mat, 2 yellow mats, 4 blue mats, 8 white mats.
A well rolled Andariel's Visage can be sold to the vendor for 11k gold (about), and salvaged for 2 orange mats, 4 yellow mats, 6 blue mats, 10 white mats.
Can't get rid of legendaries you don't want. Correct, even if you found a complete perfect rolled item that you don't want to use, the only thing to do is salvage and sell for the same price as a badly rolled legendary.
Maybe they could make a quick equation giving the legendary a higher price if the rolls are higher to the max.
For example:
A poorly rolled Andariel's Visage can be sold to the vendor for 6k gold (about), and salvaged for 1 orange mat, 2 yellow mats, 4 blue mats, 8 white mats.
A well rolled Andariel's Visage can be sold to the vendor for 11k gold (about), and salvaged for 2 orange mats, 4 yellow mats, 6 blue mats, 10 white mats.
Blizzard will actually have complete control over the gear pacing of the game. If you have to farm fir every legendary you have, then things like drop rates and stat rolls can be finely tuned.
Yeah, but this isn't WoW. D2s loot was plenty random. It didn't need tight control, hell it really didn't even have "finely tuned" drop rates. It just worked. The reason it worked was simple. They didn't try to blow the system up every time some angry people on the forums went on a rant about how trading is cheating (YOU never said that, but some people in these threads have come very close to calling traders cheaters, and that's damned pathetic).
I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that "mass trading" is a good/bad/indifferent thing. It's not really my cup of tea, and if they nixed that "for the good of the game" I think I could understand that move. But I still, for the life of me, will not understand why you and I must be banned from exchanging items on a very localized level. I will concede that removing "mass trading" might actually help the game out. But I see removing localized trading as a MAJOR step backwards.
If you give me a Serpent Sparker because you know I really want to try out a build that needs it, but I haven't found one yet, how does that actually make my gameplay worse? Unless you trade me enough items that I'd never actually have a real need to find anything on my own... but that's much more of an issue of me saying to you "HEY! DUDE! I really appreciate your generosity, you've helped me finish sets for builds that I really was jazzed about using, but if I keep taking all these items it's going to make the game boring... so put them on your other toons and have a blast!"
Demanding that Blizzard legislate that interaction between you and I, though.... that's completely asinine.
All I see is this trading is something you can do in game, having lots of things to do is great. Remove trading that's one less thing you can do = bad.
If there are problems with trading create a fix, just beacuse I want to build my own car does not mean I have to stop everybody elce being able to buy one.
D2 had lots of broken skills and mechanics but what it also had was options. Do I want block, faster block rate, faster hit recovery, faster attack speed, more hp, more mana, more dodge, cushing blow, open wounds, knockback, life leech, all res, individual res, absorb, faster run/walk (lol), more attack rating, defence, max resistace, slow, freeze, blind. All of this and we have not even mentioned skills choices.
D3: Option one dps, option two dps, option three dps.
Having all thos options in D2 did not put off casual players, but having no options in D3 does put off non casual players or players with at least one brain cell.
All I am saying is AH = 1 option we are now -1 option on a very short list of avalible options.
Wait, what? In D3, of course people want DPS, who the hell doesn't? It's how we go about it, whether it's stacking crit for skill effects, or stacking attack speed for legendary procs, or (in RoS) stacking crushing blow for the first 1/2 of the mobs life, or stacking + elemental damage for our main nukes...
See? I can list off affixes as well. And some of those D2 affixes? Those were horrible! Who liked HAVING to have hit recovery? How maddening was it to be STUN LOCKED if you didn't? Hit rating? Yea, missing my spells is fun without it.
And I'm sorry, but if you're answer to a problem is "create a fix", then you don't get a seat at the table of discussion. This brings absolutely nothing. You've also stated a couple times (as other people have) that Blizzard is 'removing trading', which of course is false. Grey / white / magic / and rare items are still trad-able, as well as all the crafting reagents including legendary ones, gold, and gems. You're still going to be able to trade all those items, and from the looks of RoS, we'll actually WANT all those items. Trading isn't being removed, instead they've done what you told them to; they've created a fix. They found a middle ground.
I don't mean for any of this to be a personal attack, but I'll admit I'm getting slightly more annoyed than usual at the apparent lack of actual thought put into this. I'll reiterate something I said previously on the subject of BoA; When it's boiled down, you're left with the 4 main options.
Free for all trading and supported self found.
This creates a severely flooded market, which means within months or less everyone will be able to acquire every piece of gear they could ever want. I'm not sure about everyone else, so I won't just throw numbers around to help my end, but the overwhelming majority of everyone I personally know that's played D2 for years, as well as D3, played to find great items. I had a couple 'fringe' friends who only PK'd in D2, but like I said it's the majority for me. This means that with a flooded, cheap market just like today's, my friends and I will very quickly get burned out on RoS, because we will have the BiS legendaries, and only be playing to get a couple stat upgrade.
Free for all trading, and no self-found support.
Woo! Almost like today! The market will still be flooded (not as much as high self found drops) because of bots, and we can't even play self found if we wanted to, because just like today it would take years to find all of our gear ourselves. I don't think anyone wants this, but I could be wrong.
Restricted trading, no self-found support.
Threw this option in here just because it's technically an option, buuuuuuut I'm going to go ahead and say this won't ever happen.
Restricted trading, supported self-found.
Out of these 4 options, this one has my vote. I can still trade every crafting mat including legendary ones, gold and gems. I can give my buddies legendaries I find if we are playing together, AND I can actually play self found and gear up all of my characters. It'l be an actual competition between myself and my friends on who finds the best gear / who progresses their character the fastest, instead of me winning by dual-wielding jobs.
Now, just to make this wall of text even more likely to not be read through the whole way and instead clipped, I'll add in my own caveat; I'd have to see how it would work out in the long term, but I might be swayed into letting legendaries be traded 1 time before making them BoA. I'm not sure though on that.
Bleu42, what you never went the pacifist route in D2?
Man, you were really missing out! I've still got dozens of level 1 pacifist builds hanging out in the Blood Moor picking flowers. That's what I liked about D2, it gave you many options for how to play the game.
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D2 had pvp like D3's brawling, except you looted the corpses and it was anywhere, not just the arena. That would be freaking epic.
D2 had boss runs, D3ROS has rifts and bounties. That seems a bit better than before, but would be even better if they made act bosses equally 'efficient'.
D2 had trading, D3ROS has none.
What was the end-game where you set up rules for yourself? Like what were the rules? Would it be possible to make a game mode where you set up your own rules from a list of different ones, and you could play in that ruleset with your clan. Maybe each clan simply has a permanent ruleset only changeable by vote.
This was a MASSIVE item sink, and required you to re-level and regear multiple times over the course of D2's lifespan. I mean seriously, how many people literally never let their account(s) get wiped?
In Diablo 3s case, items in circulation- stay in circulation. Once you gear up, you never have to again. As Blizzard has said, trading short circuits what is intended to be the game life cycle.
I plan on buying the ps4 version for multiple reasons, but included is the replayability inherent in a complete reset. If I leave the game for a while, only to come back to my OP in a day geared account (from trading/ah/3rd party sites)... I have nothing further to do.
Plain and fricking simple... trading breaks the games INTENDED life cycle. It causes the INTENDED end game of the item hunt to be short circuitable via economic trading or twinking.
And you're forgetting that RoS has the enchanter.... which does what again?
Right, takes the *desireable* items out of the economy when you enchant them. The problem with D3C was that there wasn't a shred of an item sink. That inflated the effect of trading because it allowed people to "rent" items. This simply won't be the case in RoS by and large. Furthermore, in RoS, you have to crush down two legendaries every time you enchant one. Even without enchanting making the item BoA, this is an infinitely better item sink than anything we have in D3C.
The effects of the AH would be much less dramatized and severe if we actually had item sinks in D3 which seems to be something they're actually addressing in RoS, which further emphasizes why BoA tags all over everything simply aren't necessary. People have been bitching about this for over a year, though. Let's not pretend as if it isn't a compounding problem and let's not pretend as if it hasn't been mostly addressed in RoS.
Why do people trade in D3C? Because they feel it's the only way to "succeed." That alone should clue you in that trading isn't the problem, much like the AH, but a symptom of drop rates, loot, and crafting that just don't work synergistically to give the player a good experience... so they go to the next-best thing: AH/trade.
If I had a dollar for every poster on these very forums who said they have used the AH because they felt they had no alternative, even though they really don't want to... I'd be able to retire. Let's not pretend like the average AH-user is some kind of trade-addicted heroin junky who can't kick their habit here.
The average AH-user is someone who has turned to the AH because they haven't found their own gear in a reasonable amount of time. This is precisely why you still need trading as a safety net. The game becomes frustrating if you can't find what you feel you need. This was a recurring problem with D3C design that made so many people feel forced into the AH. Taking the safety net away means you're being ignorant of why people want that safety net there in the first place.
Carry on.
So, you're telling me if trading was enabled on the PS4 version you just would lack any sort of control to play the game without trading? You can't play self-found on your own volition? You need to be forced to play self-found otherwise you just can't help yourself?
The only person the "life cycle" should matter to is the individual person who bought the game. They are the one who spent $60 on the game. This isn't a subscription based game, it doesn't matter to Blizzard (and shouldn't matter to your neighbor) if you play 200 hours or 4000 hours. If someone wants to trade and cut down their "life cycle" to 20 hours ... well then that is their choice.
I really think what everyone should be more focused on is whether or not the game itself actually fun to play or not. Because if it sucks, it doesn't matter if the "life cycle" is 6000 hours or 10 ... the game still sucks.
I'm buying the PS4 version for the reset, not because I can't trade. My point was that some people like myself find it boring running the same end game when OP repeatedly... and trading just gets you there much faster.
Video games are not all sandboxes, and while Diablo 3 may give you some elements of freedom, video games (just like a book or movie) are created with a particular vision in mind. Even board games have rules created to define their particular vision.
And actually, it DOES matter to Blizzard as they have EXPLICITLY said it matters to them (fail argument on your part).
Lastly, I completely understand the fact that Blizzard never intended the game to be played for 1000+ hours in a year and a half. But that doesn't change the fact that they have a vision of what they want the game to be, and regardless of whether or not you agree, trading brakes that vision.
I used the AH because I could and it was part of the game. It was no different than buying from an NPC in my mind.
However, if it wasn't for the AH I wouldn't have beaten inferno until after Bashiok's estimate. Ninety percent of the fricking hate on the game was the endgame, which imo wouldn't have been so bad if we all had progressed naturally. Each additional act could have been played like each additional MP is now had the entire playerbase (minus the exploiters) not broken the expected path.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - in Vanilla, the "reasonable amount of time" that it should take to find gear was a standard defined by the AH. People felt like they were progressing at a snail's pace because the AH was so much vastly better than finding loot naturally, and it would always have continued to be if they left it in. Removing the AH sets self-found as the new standard for what gear progression should be, and the difficulties are balanced accordingly. And more importantly, we already know they're doing a dozen different things to address the root problem by improving loot drops, rather than "fixing" it by allowing people to circumvent natural loot entirely.
My question still stands though, if the PS4 version had trading in it, would you trade, or is the only reason you are not trading due to the inability to do so? I am just trying to understand why there needs to be BOA for item progression when that clearly can be governed by the players by choosing to play self-found own their own.
Also, what else did you expect Blizzard to say other than the obvious PR response regarding how long they want you to enjoy the game?
Truthfully, BoA itself doesn't bother me, as I am playing the game self-found already. I am just trying to understand the opposite side of the argument because I haven't heard any real compelling arguments on why it is necessary to "save" the game.
I am more bothered by the fact that it comes off as a lazy design decision. Sort of like how increasing difficultly in this game just amounts to more mob damage and health. I'd rather have an insanely fun Diablo 3 with an item "life cycle" of 100 hours vs. a Diablo 3 that becomes incredibly dull and repetitive after 20 hours and has an item "life cycle" of 1000 hours.
Great! Let Blizz hear us.
People that use bots in D3 aren't welcome on my friendlist. Friends goes first, strangers second.
Making this possible would mean many things.
1. You need that cheater on your friendlist for a great deal of time before you can get what you wanted in the first place, this allows the cheater (read: third-party gold-trolls) to be targeted for extermination.
2. Friends will benefit on helping each other out.
3. Friendlist will only be a legendary-trade-thingy. When it comes to materials, I would like to see what they have now.. The 2 hour window!
4. Clans could have 2 day pending with the items of their choice. Materials included. Materials could then be another economy (value) for trade.
Edit: These ideas was sent to Blizz a few days ago..
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
Sometimes i'm amazed at the inability of people to understand any point of view except their own--looks at dimebag. all while sounding like the cookie monster or some shit "arggh items, give me all the items, i must possess them, more items!"
Clearly the process of finding items and possessing them are both important and heavily related.
Anti BoA;
Loss of socialization. Yes, with one less way to interact with other players, we defiantly lose a little bit of that.
Your gear is completely up to the rng gods. Yes, it's very likely that it will take you a good amount of time to get every piece for something, and there's no way to susupplement that.
Can't get rid of legendaries you don't want. Correct, even if you found a complete perfect rolled item that you don't want to use, the only thing to do is salvage and sell for the same price as a badly rolled legendary.
Pro BoA;
You can't have your cake and eat it to. With free trading you have a super saturated market just like todays, and you can have every piece of gear you've ever wanted in minutes. Thats if you want to have a viable self found environment. OR, you make self found near impossible to try and compensate. You can't have a non saturated market while at the same time having a playable self found game.
We actually don't lose much socialization. With crafting getting some love, crafting mats, gems, gold and items up to rare quality will be in demand, and trading will still exist.
Blizzard will actually have complete control over the gear pacing of the game. If you have to farm fir every legendary you have, then things like drop rates and stat rolls can be finely tuned.
Self found will actually be viable.
Like I said I don't think the anti BoA crowd is wrong. As a player however I find the BoA route to be more enticing, and as such is the side I choose.
For example:
That's not a bad idea
Yeah, but this isn't WoW. D2s loot was plenty random. It didn't need tight control, hell it really didn't even have "finely tuned" drop rates. It just worked. The reason it worked was simple. They didn't try to blow the system up every time some angry people on the forums went on a rant about how trading is cheating (YOU never said that, but some people in these threads have come very close to calling traders cheaters, and that's damned pathetic).
I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that "mass trading" is a good/bad/indifferent thing. It's not really my cup of tea, and if they nixed that "for the good of the game" I think I could understand that move. But I still, for the life of me, will not understand why you and I must be banned from exchanging items on a very localized level. I will concede that removing "mass trading" might actually help the game out. But I see removing localized trading as a MAJOR step backwards.
If you give me a Serpent Sparker because you know I really want to try out a build that needs it, but I haven't found one yet, how does that actually make my gameplay worse? Unless you trade me enough items that I'd never actually have a real need to find anything on my own... but that's much more of an issue of me saying to you "HEY! DUDE! I really appreciate your generosity, you've helped me finish sets for builds that I really was jazzed about using, but if I keep taking all these items it's going to make the game boring... so put them on your other toons and have a blast!"
Demanding that Blizzard legislate that interaction between you and I, though.... that's completely asinine.
Wait, what? In D3, of course people want DPS, who the hell doesn't? It's how we go about it, whether it's stacking crit for skill effects, or stacking attack speed for legendary procs, or (in RoS) stacking crushing blow for the first 1/2 of the mobs life, or stacking + elemental damage for our main nukes...
See? I can list off affixes as well. And some of those D2 affixes? Those were horrible! Who liked HAVING to have hit recovery? How maddening was it to be STUN LOCKED if you didn't? Hit rating? Yea, missing my spells is fun without it.
And I'm sorry, but if you're answer to a problem is "create a fix", then you don't get a seat at the table of discussion. This brings absolutely nothing. You've also stated a couple times (as other people have) that Blizzard is 'removing trading', which of course is false. Grey / white / magic / and rare items are still trad-able, as well as all the crafting reagents including legendary ones, gold, and gems. You're still going to be able to trade all those items, and from the looks of RoS, we'll actually WANT all those items. Trading isn't being removed, instead they've done what you told them to; they've created a fix. They found a middle ground.
I don't mean for any of this to be a personal attack, but I'll admit I'm getting slightly more annoyed than usual at the apparent lack of actual thought put into this. I'll reiterate something I said previously on the subject of BoA; When it's boiled down, you're left with the 4 main options.
Free for all trading and supported self found.
This creates a severely flooded market, which means within months or less everyone will be able to acquire every piece of gear they could ever want. I'm not sure about everyone else, so I won't just throw numbers around to help my end, but the overwhelming majority of everyone I personally know that's played D2 for years, as well as D3, played to find great items. I had a couple 'fringe' friends who only PK'd in D2, but like I said it's the majority for me. This means that with a flooded, cheap market just like today's, my friends and I will very quickly get burned out on RoS, because we will have the BiS legendaries, and only be playing to get a couple stat upgrade.
Free for all trading, and no self-found support.
Woo! Almost like today! The market will still be flooded (not as much as high self found drops) because of bots, and we can't even play self found if we wanted to, because just like today it would take years to find all of our gear ourselves. I don't think anyone wants this, but I could be wrong.
Restricted trading, no self-found support.
Threw this option in here just because it's technically an option, buuuuuuut I'm going to go ahead and say this won't ever happen.
Restricted trading, supported self-found.
Out of these 4 options, this one has my vote. I can still trade every crafting mat including legendary ones, gold and gems. I can give my buddies legendaries I find if we are playing together, AND I can actually play self found and gear up all of my characters. It'l be an actual competition between myself and my friends on who finds the best gear / who progresses their character the fastest, instead of me winning by dual-wielding jobs.
Now, just to make this wall of text even more likely to not be read through the whole way and instead clipped, I'll add in my own caveat; I'd have to see how it would work out in the long term, but I might be swayed into letting legendaries be traded 1 time before making them BoA. I'm not sure though on that.
TLDR; Raaaaaage
Man, you were really missing out! I've still got dozens of level 1 pacifist builds hanging out in the Blood Moor picking flowers. That's what I liked about D2, it gave you many options for how to play the game.