I am wondering if there are skill groupings of the + damage modifiers. Obviously attack doesn't multiply itself, same for crit damage. So perhaps +all % damage also just adds to itself as well. And then weapon damage.
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
If the math pans out as such, dropping Battle Rage should only lower damage by about 15-25% as opposed to a 50% cut.
I am wondering if there are skill groupings of the + damage modifiers. Obviously attack doesn't multiply itself, same for crit damage. So perhaps +all % damage also just adds to itself as well. And then weapon damage.
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
I was beginning to wonder this myself. It's done in WOW. I think the best way to start out though is to get a tester to level a Barb from 1-13, taking note of:
-Base stat increases
-Base modifier changes (from those stat changes)
A note to keep in mind is to take these changes based on a "naked" Barb, with no gear on (at recording time of course) and no self / group / item buffs.
-We could then plot on a graph each critical piece of information (and potential find how stats influence +%DMG, +%Crit, etc.) taking each one's change at levels 1-13 and see if there's a trend.
-Take those rough levels changes, project it to a level 60, "naked" Barb and work off that instead of guessing.
I got time and Vent server to donate to any you who wants to do this. Having a skill calculator is nice, but a dmg, crit, etc. calculator be soooo much more informative at endgame.
What stat gives you + to crit damage? Where do you guys get amounts like 500% increased crit damage from?
They don't get it from anywhere. They are assuming that 500% crit damage is possible through gear bonuses. I personally doubt this is true. If it were, the barbs +50% crit dmg passive would be worthless.
When Precision is moused over it shows you your increased crit and crit damage. I am assuming this means that precision has an effect on crit damage? I do not know for certain.
And guys, this isn't about Barb bashing, it's about mechanics and allowing for build variation.
I also believe that +%increased damage will be added together before multiplying. In other words, red runed frenzy + red runed battle rage comes out to a +220% increased damage bonus rather than something like 120*100% increased damage.
And whether the barb is doing too much damage or the other classes are doing not enough, blizzard will balance it so that there isn't an IMMEDIATELY obvious superior class for damage.
increase damage by % are supposed to be multiplicative... that's how they make us feel strong... and remember, we're supposed to be the second coming of the edyrem... so we're supposed to be strong.
but to your argument that attack will let barbs keep up with wizards... last I checked the attack stat increased 'all damage done by %' so that will work for wizards too
I'm sorry I stopped reading at some point. Why is everyone assuming that percentage based upgrades are multiplicative? Did they say that somewhere? I doubt the math will be a simple as that, but I'm only assuming that I don't know. I just doubt the percentages add in such an explosive way.
I am wondering if there are skill groupings of the + damage modifiers. Obviously attack doesn't multiply itself, same for crit damage. So perhaps +all % damage also just adds to itself as well. And then weapon damage.
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
If the math pans out as such, dropping Battle Rage should only lower damage by about 15-25% as opposed to a 50% cut.
Not crunching math here but figured I would point out two concerns. I believe Frenzy only give damage bonus to Frenzy. Was seeing some posts about people testing it in the beta. Pretty sure this is true.
As for the No Escape bonus, are we sure that is simply added with other "bonus damage" percentages? I ask because the passive specifically gives Throw Weapon a 100% boost. I figured that would be taken into effect for the skill's damage before adding all "bonus damage" percentages. If the way I see is the way it is, then your number is actually low.
Two points: one, so long as relative strengths of classes are effectively equivalent, "overpowered" does not really apply. One skill may be discussed as overpowered vs another, but they ought to be skills serving the same function, otherwise it's apples to oranges. Secondly, not all builds will necessarily be designed for maxing out dps. They may be designed for utility, for tanking, for solo survivability, for guaranteed survivability (in the case of HC), or just for plain simple fun (which for some people may not be synonymous with plain simple min/maxed damage.) Keep in mind that unlike WoW, just because you *can* double, triple, or otherwise increase your damage, it doesn't mean you will "need to." In WoW, you get into a boss fight, and you typically have |--------| this long to win or *you lose.* In Diablo, if you do half as much damage as the other guy, you can probably kill anything he can but simply in double the time. Is that probably desirable? Yes. Is it *required?* No.
Certainly some builds will be capable of tremendously higher dps than others... personally, most of my builds will follow one philosophy: a single target dps-maxed attack -> a multitarget/AoE dps-maxed attack -> whatever is necessary for overall resource gain/regen -> utility (dps buffs/enemy incoming damage debuffs -> survivability/mobility.) That will probably equate in most cases to 2-3 pure damage skills, 1-2 resource-management skills, 1-3 self-buff/enemy-debuff skills, and 0-2 survivability skills (some of these categories may overlap.)
Two points: one, so long as relative strengths of classes are effectively equivalent, "overpowered" does not really apply. One skill may be discussed as overpowered vs another, but they ought to be skills serving the same function, otherwise it's apples to oranges. Secondly, not all builds will necessarily be designed for maxing out dps. They may be designed for utility, for tanking, for solo survivability, for guaranteed survivability (in the case of HC), or just for plain simple fun (which for some people may not be synonymous with plain simple min/maxed damage.) Keep in mind that unlike WoW, just because you *can* double, triple, or otherwise increase your damage, it doesn't mean you will "need to." In WoW, you get into a boss fight, and you typically have |--------| this long to win or *you lose.* In Diablo, if you do half as much damage as the other guy, you can probably kill anything he can but simply in double the time. Is that probably desirable? Yes. Is it *required?* No.
Certainly some builds will be capable of tremendously higher dps than others... personally, most of my builds will follow one philosophy: a single target dps-maxed attack -> a multitarget/AoE dps-maxed attack -> whatever is necessary for overall resource gain/regen -> utility (dps buffs/enemy incoming damage debuffs -> survivability/mobility.) That will probably equate in most cases to 2-3 pure damage skills, 1-2 resource-management skills, 1-3 self-buff/enemy-debuff skills, and 0-2 survivability skills (some of these categories may overlap.)
The list of how many and layout of skills you plan on using is pretty smart. Going to go redo some ideas for builds I have with this new tid bit in mind.
So: [{(Weapon*Skill Weapon %) * Attack} * % Skill Damage] * Crit Damage % = obliteration
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
If the math pans out as such, dropping Battle Rage should only lower damage by about 15-25% as opposed to a 50% cut.
I was beginning to wonder this myself. It's done in WOW. I think the best way to start out though is to get a tester to level a Barb from 1-13, taking note of:
-Base stat increases
-Base modifier changes (from those stat changes)
A note to keep in mind is to take these changes based on a "naked" Barb, with no gear on (at recording time of course) and no self / group / item buffs.
-We could then plot on a graph each critical piece of information (and potential find how stats influence +%DMG, +%Crit, etc.) taking each one's change at levels 1-13 and see if there's a trend.
-Take those rough levels changes, project it to a level 60, "naked" Barb and work off that instead of guessing.
I got time and Vent server to donate to any you who wants to do this. Having a skill calculator is nice, but a dmg, crit, etc. calculator be soooo much more informative at endgame.
When Precision is moused over it shows you your increased crit and crit damage. I am assuming this means that precision has an effect on crit damage? I do not know for certain.
And guys, this isn't about Barb bashing, it's about mechanics and allowing for build variation.
I also believe that +%increased damage will be added together before multiplying. In other words, red runed frenzy + red runed battle rage comes out to a +220% increased damage bonus rather than something like 120*100% increased damage.
And whether the barb is doing too much damage or the other classes are doing not enough, blizzard will balance it so that there isn't an IMMEDIATELY obvious superior class for damage.
but to your argument that attack will let barbs keep up with wizards... last I checked the attack stat increased 'all damage done by %' so that will work for wizards too
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Not crunching math here but figured I would point out two concerns. I believe Frenzy only give damage bonus to Frenzy. Was seeing some posts about people testing it in the beta. Pretty sure this is true.
As for the No Escape bonus, are we sure that is simply added with other "bonus damage" percentages? I ask because the passive specifically gives Throw Weapon a 100% boost. I figured that would be taken into effect for the skill's damage before adding all "bonus damage" percentages. If the way I see is the way it is, then your number is actually low.
Just something to take into consideration.
Certainly some builds will be capable of tremendously higher dps than others... personally, most of my builds will follow one philosophy: a single target dps-maxed attack -> a multitarget/AoE dps-maxed attack -> whatever is necessary for overall resource gain/regen -> utility (dps buffs/enemy incoming damage debuffs -> survivability/mobility.) That will probably equate in most cases to 2-3 pure damage skills, 1-2 resource-management skills, 1-3 self-buff/enemy-debuff skills, and 0-2 survivability skills (some of these categories may overlap.)
The list of how many and layout of skills you plan on using is pretty smart. Going to go redo some ideas for builds I have with this new tid bit in mind.