The idea is interesting, I'll give it that. It's like people trying to figure out how to maximize Barb Wrath of the Berserker - Thrive on Chaos uptime or the Barb passive Relentless. As soon as people see those types of things they try to see how far they can push them.
I will say this wizard one definitely is under the radar as far as that type of skill exploiting goes, nice find. I'm wondering where you saw a naked 60 will have 1500HP and how accurate that is.
I also believe it will be near impossible to avoid VIT on gear, especially if the base HP really is that low. That means they designed health pools to be like 90% gear based.
can we put this to rest? it's not interesting, it's just a ripoff of 55monk builds from GW, an idea that is seriously like 6-7 years old. The difference being this build is missing a Shielding Hands equivalent, which, when applied correctly would take effect after the % reduction and would then reduce the leftover damage by a straight number.
player has 55 health, protective spirit (can't take more than 10% dmg) means you don't get hit for more than 5.5 dmg in a game where most players max health is 600(not significant, just for reference). Add shielding hands which has a longer duration than it's CD and reduces damage by up to 20 after the previous reduction if done correctly and you take zero damage except for "degen" damage but every 55monk had a ton of regen because that's what they relied on for heals.
But I digress. the fact is this near 55 clone doesn't have "shielding hands" so after the first reply of "being attacked by more than one enemy" the only subsequent post we should have seen is "/thread"
can we put this to rest? it's not interesting, it's just a ripoff of 55monk builds from GW, an idea that is seriously like 6-7 years old. The difference being this build is missing a Shielding Hands equivalent, which, when applied correctly would take effect after the % reduction and would then reduce the leftover damage by a straight number.
player has 55 health, protective spirit (can't take more than 10% dmg) means you don't get hit for more than 5.5 dmg in a game where most players max health is 600(not significant, just for reference). Add shielding hands which has a longer duration than it's CD and reduces damage by up to 20 after the previous reduction if done correctly and you take zero damage except for "degen" damage but every 55monk had a ton of regen because that's what they relied on for heals.
But I digress. the fact is this near 55 clone doesn't have "shielding hands" so after the first reply of "being attacked by more than one enemy" the only subsequent post we should have seen is "/thread"
Just because it's possible to do in another game doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed or that it isn't interesting. I already made the link between this idea and the 55HP Monk from GW, but I didn't abuse anyone for bringing this up.
However I've been thinking about it more and I don't think it will work (as you said), because it doesn't seem possible to reduce the 35% damage, or to heal faster than once per second.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed though. Maybe you should go play some more Guild Wars.
Top of the line chest armor (or an amulet) can provide up to 599 health per second in natural regen; misc armor peices and rings can give up to 342. A full set of perfect regen gear gives 4618 health per second. Since at base health you'd take 541 damage per hit, that means you'd regenerate the damage taken every 0.117 seconds.
Weapons, off-hand items, and amulets can also provide up to 959 health restored per hit. Couple that with items that have a high tick rate, and you'll restore nearly two hits worth of damage for each hit you take.
I'm not sure what could kill you in that circumstance - a very high tick rate DoT? Getting completely swarmed and bursted? I'd really like to know.
I would assume that 1000 health per second is just that 1000 health per second, not 100 health per 0.1 seconds. Though you bring up an interesting point about gear. If you could regen more health than you have, then you could drop galvanizing ward as it would be worthless at that point.
Normal Regen
The templar's loyalty buff might be on a separate timer as normal regen.
Also, the heals from the Amethyst Gems would happen at different times.
So that is potentially 3 heals, all coming in at different times to help ensure you don't get burst down by a bunch of guys.
Force armor doesn't say the attack has to lower your health by more than 35%, just if it could. Also Diamond skin doesn't technically add to your health pool, just absorb dmg. Therefore the attacks would come in and hit for like 500 dmg(35% of your max health), whilst Diamond Skin absorbs 10k.
Edit: Illusionist might require you to actually take dmg...if so they its out, along with mirror image.
Hmm, Diamond Skin is really interesting with this build.
It just depends on the order that the numbers are applied.
If Diamond Skin blocks damage prior to Force Armor converting the damage to 35% of your max health, then it would probably be useless.
But if Force Armor converts the damage first, then Diamond Skin blocks damage, that would be pretty amazing.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Yah, I guess it could work that way I suppose. It would all have to be tested.
From the wording it doesn't seem like force armor has any kind of internal CD, but I am also worried about that.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Just because it's possible to do in another game doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed or that it isn't interesting. I already made the link between this idea and the 55HP Monk from GW, but I didn't abuse anyone for bringing this up.
However I've been thinking about it more and I don't think it will work (as you said), because it doesn't seem possible to reduce the 35% damage, or to heal faster than once per second.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed though. Maybe you should go play some more Guild Wars.
That guy is a troll. Just ignore him.
There are potentially 3 ways to heal yourself.
Normal health regen from gear and galv ward
The templar's loyalty buff might be on a separate timer as normal regen.
Also, the heals from the Amethyst Gems would happen at different times.
The gem heal alone could easily push 2 heals per second with some IAS gear.
Throw all that together and you have 3-4 heals per second.
Also if the diamond skin idea works, it wouldn't even matter, as you would literally be unkillable. If not then you can still spam mirror images that either do dmg, or blow up and stun for 2 seconds.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Obviously, this build is focused too much on defensive abilities and lacks therefore damage. There is no gain in surviving almost everything if you are unable to kill something. Balance is the key.
Easy fix, drop wormhole.
You can only use 2-3 attacks.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Simply put 35% HP cap is too high, you die in 3-4 hits and if they come close enough together or you get stunned or similar in the meantime then it's game over. Could work vs a single very strong foe that doesn't spawn any adds at all.. Aka won't work.
Regarding all the speculation about synergies with other damage reducers, I don't think it will work. From the "force armor" tooltip: "Incoming attacks that would deal more than 35% of your maximum life are reduced to deal 35% of your maximum life instead."
I read that to mean that if whatever attack comes in will reduce your life by more than 35%, it gets cut down to 35%. If you have something like diamond skin active and that's going to absorb the damage instead, that attack won't reduce your life by more than 35%, so force armor won't come into play. I don't see it being possible to use other abilities to push this below 35%, since I don't think that's how it will be calculated by the game.
Of course, I'm just speculating based on my best guess. The real answer will come in 5 days.
Simply put 35% HP cap is too high, you die in 3-4 hits and if they come close enough together or you get stunned or similar in the meantime then it's game over. Could work vs a single very strong foe that doesn't spawn any adds at all.. Aka won't work.
In inferno you die in 3-4 hits anyways....If this works the way as expected, then your survivability in inferno would actually go up.
Obviously, this build is focused too much on defensive abilities and lacks therefore damage. There is no gain in surviving almost everything if you are unable to kill something. Balance is the key.
Good point.
But why bother using a shield? The armor is rather meaningless since you have no HP.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
But why bother using a shield? The armor is rather meaningless since you have no HP.
That was an example, we still don't know if force armor comes or not at the very end of the defense chain. Diamond skin and the shield might indeed be useless..
It would have to come at the end wouldn't it? Otherwise at higher difficulties it would work for basically every attack that hit you, no matter if you avoided vitality of not. Pretty much every mob would hit more than 35% of your HP if you had no armor or resistances.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Simply put 35% HP cap is too high, you die in 3-4 hits and if they come close enough together or you get stunned or similar in the meantime then it's game over. Could work vs a single very strong foe that doesn't spawn any adds at all.. Aka won't work.
In inferno you die in 3-4 hits anyways....If this works the way as expected, then your survivability in inferno would actually go up.
In inferno you will surely face a variety of mobs as well. Some will hit you constantly for small amounts of damage, Others will chip away half your HP in a single hit.
I've played builds revolving around damage caps like this in multiple games. Some revolve around high damage caps (30-40%) with HOTs, speed and dodge to keep you alive. Others around a mix of absorbs, some revolve around skills making the damage caps very low (like 5-10%). Now I'm not saying I can't see this build working, it surely can especially if combined with mirror images, teleports and top end equipment to heal yourself.
But only against small groups like champions or boss mobs. Or in 1v1 - 2v2 PVP. But with the +MF/GF buff you get from killing them you wouldn't be able to change your build only to deal with those specific mobs so you would have to have at least a gear swap available. And then there would be rapidly hitting spellcasters, minions, DOTs, Thorns, snares, teleports and other stuff to concider.
So in other words this concept isn't going to work with that low HP. Because the damage caps are way too high, this skill is better suited for a medium HP approach where damage and regen is your focus. If a normal char has 10-12 000 HP a char buildt around this could probably work well with 6-7k HP. Low enough to take the edge off really hard hits and heal up fast, high enough that you don't have to worry about the smaller hits suddenly instakilling you.
If you had actually played a similar build, in any game, you'd know this.
A bunch of mobs attacking at the same time is a weakness obviously. I believe that was covered in 1st couple posts.
If there is a room full of little mobs that run really fast, but don't hit hard, then sure it could be a pitfall of the build. However, you are gloating and pretending the standard build doesn't have weaknesses too. All builds have weaknesses, so you can't dismiss one because you come up with a BS scenario that might not even exist in which the build might be weaker than normal. One small weakness, and its a weak one to boot, is quite good for any build. Those fast light hitting mobs usually have one thing in common, they die in one hit. In fact, since this build can completely ignore defense it has a huge lead in dmg output.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Why are you all under the ridiculous assumption that life regen per second means that it only comes in once per second? That's NEVER been the case in Diablo. You don't instantly get 10 AP every time a second ticks by, do you? No, you get 1 AP every 0.1 seconds. The regeneration is divided into frames and broken down as small as possible to give a steady stream.
What Ensign said before was completely accurate—perfect life regenerating gear will replenish the damage you suffer from a hit to your force armor every 0.117 seconds, so you'd have to get hit more frequently than that (and enough to counter the additional bonuses afforded from amethysts, etc) in order to go down. Which isn't to say that you might not take 3 ranged hits all at the same time and get dropped. But everyone putting everything in terms of full seconds is downright stupid.
Though, I do agree with whoever said that it will probably be exceedingly hard to avoid +VIT gear, and every little bit means we need significantly more regen.
Why are you all under the ridiculous assumption that life regen per second means that it only comes in once per second? That's NEVER been the case in Diablo. You don't instantly get 10 AP every time a second ticks by, do you? No, you get 1 AP every 0.1 seconds. The regeneration is divided into frames and broken down as small as possible to give a steady stream.
What Ensign said before was completely accurate—perfect life regenerating gear will replenish the damage you suffer from a hit to your force armor every 0.117 seconds, so you'd have to get hit more frequently than that (and enough to counter the additional bonuses afforded from amethysts, etc) in order to go down. Which isn't to say that you might not take 3 ranged hits all at the same time and get dropped. But everyone putting everything in terms of full seconds is downright stupid.
Though, I do agree with whoever said that it will probably be exceedingly hard to avoid +VIT gear, and every little bit means we need significantly more regen.
This...
How does it not make sense?
I'm just going to say this.
It says:
Life regen per second.
Not this:
Life regen every second.
Per second means it has to be divided by the second so that the regeneration is done over the length of the entire second, not at the end of the second.
It was that way in D2 - and in fact - it's that way in every game as long as the skill doing the healing doesn't say every second or at the end of the effect.
If you played the beta, and you had 1 life regen per second; it would pop up as 0 several times and then say 1.
I am sure we don't need a 3rd grade math lesson. Just evidence.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I am sure we don't need a 3rd grade math lesson. Just evidence.
Like I said. If it did it every second rather than over a second - why would there be a need for 0's to pop up several times if you had 1 regen per second?
There wouldn't.
And that is what it did in the beta...So please enlighten us.
Are you saying if you had 10 life regen per second that it would still say 0 0 0 10?
Why are you all under the ridiculous assumption that life regen per second means that it only comes in once per second? That's NEVER been the case in Diablo. You don't instantly get 10 AP every time a second ticks by, do you? No, you get 1 AP every 0.1 seconds. The regeneration is divided into frames and broken down as small as possible to give a steady stream.
What Ensign said before was completely accurate—perfect life regenerating gear will replenish the damage you suffer from a hit to your force armor every 0.117 seconds, so you'd have to get hit more frequently than that (and enough to counter the additional bonuses afforded from amethysts, etc) in order to go down. Which isn't to say that you might not take 3 ranged hits all at the same time and get dropped. But everyone putting everything in terms of full seconds is downright stupid.
Though, I do agree with whoever said that it will probably be exceedingly hard to avoid +VIT gear, and every little bit means we need significantly more regen.
This...
How does it not make sense?
I'm just going to say this.
It says:
Life regen per second.
Not this:
Life regen every second.
Per second means it has to be divided by the second so that the regeneration is done over the length of the entire second, not at the end of the second.
It was that way in D2 - and in fact - it's that way in every game as long as the skill doing the healing doesn't say every second or at the end of the effect.
If you played the beta, and you had 1 life regen per second; it would pop up as 0 several times and then say 1.
Ok, I was assuming that life regen is applied once per second (in one chunk), because in the beta I would see a little green number pop up once a second. I made the assumption that the visual representation matched the actual regen mechanics. But it could definitely be the case that it's applied in fractions, and that they only show it once per second to make the graphics less cluttered.
If regen applies, say, every 0.1 of a second, then that's great because it means this build will potentially be very viable.
And I think it will be possible to avoid stacking +VIT gear. It might be a common affix, but that doesn't mean you won't be able to find things without it.
If this works, doesn't it mean you won't have to worry about armor and resistances at all? All you have to worry about is reducing the number of hits you take per second. So you could go completely glass cannon and use something like Slow Time and Teleport for when you get surrounded by lots of little people, then destroy them with your crazy damage. You could take Glass Cannon passive as you don't need armor or res, and Illusionist. Teleport will come off cooldown every hit you take.
I'm actually really excited about trying this
Edit: Red Panda, I never saw those 0s popping up, and I had all number options turned on. I was playing a few weeks before open beta. Was that earlier in the beta?
Why are you all under the ridiculous assumption that life regen per second means that it only comes in once per second? That's NEVER been the case in Diablo. You don't instantly get 10 AP every time a second ticks by, do you? No, you get 1 AP every 0.1 seconds. The regeneration is divided into frames and broken down as small as possible to give a steady stream.
What Ensign said before was completely accurate—perfect life regenerating gear will replenish the damage you suffer from a hit to your force armor every 0.117 seconds, so you'd have to get hit more frequently than that (and enough to counter the additional bonuses afforded from amethysts, etc) in order to go down. Which isn't to say that you might not take 3 ranged hits all at the same time and get dropped. But everyone putting everything in terms of full seconds is downright stupid.
Though, I do agree with whoever said that it will probably be exceedingly hard to avoid +VIT gear, and every little bit means we need significantly more regen.
This...
How does it not make sense?
I'm just going to say this.
It says:
Life regen per second.
Not this:
Life regen every second.
Per second means it has to be divided by the second so that the regeneration is done over the length of the entire second, not at the end of the second.
It was that way in D2 - and in fact - it's that way in every game as long as the skill doing the healing doesn't say every second or at the end of the effect.
If you played the beta, and you had 1 life regen per second; it would pop up as 0 several times and then say 1.
Ok, I was assuming that life regen is applied once per second (in one chunk), because in the beta I would see a little green number pop up once a second. I made the assumption that the visual representation matched the actual regen mechanics. But it could definitely be the case that it's applied in fractions, and that they only show it once per second to make the graphics less cluttered.
If regen applies, say, every 0.1 of a second, then that's great because it means this build will potentially be very viable.
And I think it will be possible to avoid stacking +VIT gear. It might be a common affix, but that doesn't mean you won't be able to find things without it.
If this works, doesn't it mean you won't have to worry about armor and resistances at all? All you have to worry about is reducing the number of hits you take per second. So you could go completely glass cannon and use something like Slow Time and Teleport for when you get surrounded by lots of little people, then destroy them with your crazy damage. You could take Glass Cannon passive as you don't need armor or res, and Illusionist. Teleport will come off cooldown every hit you take.
I'm actually really excited about trying this
Edit: Red Panda, I never saw those 0s popping up, and I had all number options turned on. I was playing a few weeks before open beta. Was that earlier in the beta?
Not sure, I played way back at like 13/14 or so. I saw 0's a fair bit, so I dunno. Maybe somebody has video of it ^^
I will say this wizard one definitely is under the radar as far as that type of skill exploiting goes, nice find. I'm wondering where you saw a naked 60 will have 1500HP and how accurate that is.
I also believe it will be near impossible to avoid VIT on gear, especially if the base HP really is that low. That means they designed health pools to be like 90% gear based.
player has 55 health, protective spirit (can't take more than 10% dmg) means you don't get hit for more than 5.5 dmg in a game where most players max health is 600(not significant, just for reference). Add shielding hands which has a longer duration than it's CD and reduces damage by up to 20 after the previous reduction if done correctly and you take zero damage except for "degen" damage but every 55monk had a ton of regen because that's what they relied on for heals.
But I digress. the fact is this near 55 clone doesn't have "shielding hands" so after the first reply of "being attacked by more than one enemy" the only subsequent post we should have seen is "/thread"
Just because it's possible to do in another game doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed or that it isn't interesting. I already made the link between this idea and the 55HP Monk from GW, but I didn't abuse anyone for bringing this up.
However I've been thinking about it more and I don't think it will work (as you said), because it doesn't seem possible to reduce the 35% damage, or to heal faster than once per second.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed though. Maybe you should go play some more Guild Wars.
From the wording it doesn't seem like force armor has any kind of internal CD, but I am also worried about that.
Epicurus
That guy is a troll. Just ignore him.
There are potentially 3 ways to heal yourself.
Normal health regen from gear and galv ward
The templar's loyalty buff might be on a separate timer as normal regen.
Also, the heals from the Amethyst Gems would happen at different times.
The gem heal alone could easily push 2 heals per second with some IAS gear.
Throw all that together and you have 3-4 heals per second.
Also if the diamond skin idea works, it wouldn't even matter, as you would literally be unkillable. If not then you can still spam mirror images that either do dmg, or blow up and stun for 2 seconds.
Epicurus
Easy fix, drop wormhole.
You can only use 2-3 attacks.
Epicurus
I read that to mean that if whatever attack comes in will reduce your life by more than 35%, it gets cut down to 35%. If you have something like diamond skin active and that's going to absorb the damage instead, that attack won't reduce your life by more than 35%, so force armor won't come into play. I don't see it being possible to use other abilities to push this below 35%, since I don't think that's how it will be calculated by the game.
Of course, I'm just speculating based on my best guess. The real answer will come in 5 days.
Good point.
But why bother using a shield? The armor is rather meaningless since you have no HP.
Epicurus
It would have to come at the end wouldn't it? Otherwise at higher difficulties it would work for basically every attack that hit you, no matter if you avoided vitality of not. Pretty much every mob would hit more than 35% of your HP if you had no armor or resistances.
Incoming Swing
-Armor
-Resistances
-absorb
-Force Armor
Absorb might be before or after force armor.
Epicurus
In inferno you will surely face a variety of mobs as well. Some will hit you constantly for small amounts of damage, Others will chip away half your HP in a single hit.
I've played builds revolving around damage caps like this in multiple games. Some revolve around high damage caps (30-40%) with HOTs, speed and dodge to keep you alive. Others around a mix of absorbs, some revolve around skills making the damage caps very low (like 5-10%). Now I'm not saying I can't see this build working, it surely can especially if combined with mirror images, teleports and top end equipment to heal yourself.
But only against small groups like champions or boss mobs. Or in 1v1 - 2v2 PVP. But with the +MF/GF buff you get from killing them you wouldn't be able to change your build only to deal with those specific mobs so you would have to have at least a gear swap available. And then there would be rapidly hitting spellcasters, minions, DOTs, Thorns, snares, teleports and other stuff to concider.
So in other words this concept isn't going to work with that low HP. Because the damage caps are way too high, this skill is better suited for a medium HP approach where damage and regen is your focus. If a normal char has 10-12 000 HP a char buildt around this could probably work well with 6-7k HP. Low enough to take the edge off really hard hits and heal up fast, high enough that you don't have to worry about the smaller hits suddenly instakilling you.
If you had actually played a similar build, in any game, you'd know this.
If there is a room full of little mobs that run really fast, but don't hit hard, then sure it could be a pitfall of the build. However, you are gloating and pretending the standard build doesn't have weaknesses too. All builds have weaknesses, so you can't dismiss one because you come up with a BS scenario that might not even exist in which the build might be weaker than normal. One small weakness, and its a weak one to boot, is quite good for any build. Those fast light hitting mobs usually have one thing in common, they die in one hit. In fact, since this build can completely ignore defense it has a huge lead in dmg output.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
What Ensign said before was completely accurate—perfect life regenerating gear will replenish the damage you suffer from a hit to your force armor every 0.117 seconds, so you'd have to get hit more frequently than that (and enough to counter the additional bonuses afforded from amethysts, etc) in order to go down. Which isn't to say that you might not take 3 ranged hits all at the same time and get dropped. But everyone putting everything in terms of full seconds is downright stupid.
Though, I do agree with whoever said that it will probably be exceedingly hard to avoid +VIT gear, and every little bit means we need significantly more regen.
Would be interesting development if it did work that way, but it honestly doesn't make sense from a development perspective..
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
This...
How does it not make sense?
I'm just going to say this.
It says:
Life regen per second.
Not this:
Life regen every second.
Per second means it has to be divided by the second so that the regeneration is done over the length of the entire second, not at the end of the second.
It was that way in D2 - and in fact - it's that way in every game as long as the skill doing the healing doesn't say every second or at the end of the effect.
If you played the beta, and you had 1 life regen per second; it would pop up as 0 several times and then say 1.
Epicurus
Like I said. If it did it every second rather than over a second - why would there be a need for 0's to pop up several times if you had 1 regen per second?
There wouldn't.
And that is what it did in the beta...So please enlighten us.
Are you saying if you had 10 life regen per second that it would still say 0 0 0 10?
No, it would probably say 2/3 2/3 2/3 2/3, etc.
Ok, I was assuming that life regen is applied once per second (in one chunk), because in the beta I would see a little green number pop up once a second. I made the assumption that the visual representation matched the actual regen mechanics. But it could definitely be the case that it's applied in fractions, and that they only show it once per second to make the graphics less cluttered.
If regen applies, say, every 0.1 of a second, then that's great because it means this build will potentially be very viable.
And I think it will be possible to avoid stacking +VIT gear. It might be a common affix, but that doesn't mean you won't be able to find things without it.
If this works, doesn't it mean you won't have to worry about armor and resistances at all? All you have to worry about is reducing the number of hits you take per second. So you could go completely glass cannon and use something like Slow Time and Teleport for when you get surrounded by lots of little people, then destroy them with your crazy damage. You could take Glass Cannon passive as you don't need armor or res, and Illusionist. Teleport will come off cooldown every hit you take.
I'm actually really excited about trying this
Edit: Red Panda, I never saw those 0s popping up, and I had all number options turned on. I was playing a few weeks before open beta. Was that earlier in the beta?
Not sure, I played way back at like 13/14 or so. I saw 0's a fair bit, so I dunno. Maybe somebody has video of it ^^
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!