Make all legendary changes retroactive!

  • or at the very least fix the Primals. Here is what Blizzard defined as their design philosophy in the 2.5 patchnotes:
    https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/20635663/patch-250-now-live-3-21-2017#items
    <code>http://imgur.com/a/fSH2w&lt;/code&gt;
    Primal Ancient Items

    Developer Philosophy
    ...Primals provide an avenue for dedicated players to complete a build, without feeling like required upgrades

    These items are much more rare than Ancient items and have perfect Ancient-level stats on all affixes, including the item’s Legendary Power...

    08/19/2017 08:28 AMPosted by Brogoth
    Seems to me Blizzard was very heavily implying they were meant to be BiS.


    -the stats will be maxed out;
    -the legendary power will be maxed out;
    -once you have it, you shouldn't feel the need to replace it

    If the legendary power is not maxed out (which is the case with items like DML on the PTR), or is incomplete (which is the case with items like Yang's Recurve on the PTR), you will feel the need to replace the item. What we have on the PTR does not match the design philosophy we were present with 2.5.
    <code>http://imgur.com/UQUQkYn&lt;/code&gt;
    ==============================================================
    Here is my response to Nevalistis, so you don't have to look for it throughout the pages:
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    If you've tested with us in the past, you may have noticed that, often when we make changes to Legendary or Set items, only changes to Set Item powers are retroactive.

    I would argue, that it's about time, that balance changes apply retroactively not just to set items, but to items in general. Why keep the double standard?
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    There is a reason for this.

    The powers as they exist on Set Items have no variables.

    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Powers on Legendary items, however, generally include variables. Retroactively applying an update to these kinds of items is much trickier

    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Do we issue rerolls to all the existing items? Are players okay with the potential that their existing item may turn out worse than it was prior to the patch?

    There shouldn't be a problem with figuring out the appropriate values for items, that had either blue affixes, or legendary powers with variables prior to the patch. Those variables are still sufficient indication of how well an item rolled. 99/100 multishot on a DML is nearly perfect item. 148/150 would still be nearly perfect item.

    What I am suggesting, is that you simply adjust the rolls of the existing items, if that's possible, so that the item has the same proportion of the stat.
    Take Dead Man's Legacy for instance. The maximum bonus to Multishot as of current is 100. On the PTR, the new quivers roll with up to 150.
    If I have a roll of 99/100 as of current on live, and if next patch the new maximum is 150, how tricky is it to multiply 99x1.5 and give me a roll of 148/150?
    I am not being sarcastic here, it's a genuine question.
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Does making the change create cases where legacy items might end up more powerful than the intended new level?

    I don't think that's possible.
    If I have a DML quiver on live with 99/100 Multishot, and if next patch you were to adjust it to 148/150, how would that make the item more powerful than the new intended level? I am not asking for 160 or 200, mind you.
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Primals with their static nature raise an interesting question, but similar complications.

    Yes, Primas are static, just like the sets are. There is no complication whatsoever, when it comes to a Primal item, because it is meant to be a max rolled anyways.
    In the case of a Primal Yang's Recurve, I am asking for you to add the maximum amount of 150% Multishot damage, so that the item remains perfect. I am not asking for 200 or 300, so that the item is more powerful than the new intended level.

    The only complication arises when it comes to items, that are Not Primals, and their new legendary power contains a ranging value when it didn't before, such as the case with the new Yang's Recurve on the PTR, that has a ranging value of 125-150% multishot damage.
    Unlike the Dead Man's Legacy, that already had a skill damage multiplier with a ranging value prior to the patch and the issue of determining the new amount can be solved through simple multiplication, Yang's Recurve did Not have one prior to the patch, so if you were to adjust them retroactively, the question is what value to assign.
    <code>http://imgur.com/a/svKe2&lt;/code&gt;

    Take these two for instance. Prior to the patch there is only a small difference of 2.2% in damage, because the legendary power doesn't have a ranging value and it's the same.
    If after the patch the Primal were to be adjusted to the full amount, while the Ancient were to be adjusted to the minimum amount, the small disparity between the two items would turn into a larger gap. I understand, that this can be a problem.
    However, I would still argue, that even the absolute minimum of 125% is better than nothing at all for the non-Primal item. The Primal should obviously get the maximum amount.
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    maintains an equal playing field for everyone (everyone has the same new goal)

    This makes absolutely no sense to me. Please try and understand my perspective from the position of a player.

    My goal is to make myself builds, that I personally find to be enjoyable and functional. As a returning player, I have made two builds for myself. One for bounties and exploration and another for what is more of an endgame content.
    The next patch I wanted to dedicate my time and materials to maybe make a new build. Maybe a support Monk for more of an endgame content, maybe a Wizard for bounties and exploration... but not at the expense of what I've assembled so far for my current builds.

    You wanna make balance changes in order to increase the build diversity and bring certain builds on par, or at least closer to others -- excellent! Some builds really needed that, especially the Barbarian ones. That is all fine and it's to be commended.
    But when you mess up my already existing non-set items, you're forcing me to choose whether to dedicate my time and mats on trying to repair my already existing builds, or making new ones. This is not right and has absolutely nothing to do with "equal playing field" or whatever, because my characters and my gear don't exist at the expense of some other player out there.

    Also, the more I think about these changes, the more I come to the conclusion, that this is a new way of Blizzard trying to force the players to play Seasons in a similar fashion to what were the Seasonal items. We had this nonsense back in 2015 and there were pages upon pages of complaints about this and eventually this got removed.
    So I guess now, that enough time is passed, they are trying a new approach... buffs, that don't affect skills or already existing items, so that you might as well start from scratch on Seasonal...
    If that's the intent, I find this to be extremely lame. It's basically telling the players "If you're playing NS, you're doing it wrong!"

    tl;dr
    It's been 5 years. Stop messing up my gear and stop wasting my time, so that I can make new characters and builds, instead of having to waste my time repairing old ones.
    If you apply balance changes in order to buff builds -- do so retroactively! If you can't do so by adjusting the items retroactively, you can always go back to buffing the damage of skills and runes.
    The Necromancer already puts the other classes to shame with skills such as 1750% weapon damage on Corpse Lance, so instead of having so many other builds to replace their non-set items, they might as well just buff the skills.


    One more thing:
    08/17/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Primals with their static nature raise an interesting question, but similar complications. I'm happy to pass this concern on, but to stay consistent with our item change philosophy, we will continue to only retroactively change Set Items.

    You're saying within the same sentence, that you'll pass our concerns and feedback to the developers, but at the same time the policy will remain the same.
    Why even bother to read the feedback and pass it on to the developers, if the outcome is already known?
  • If you've tested with us in the past, you may have noticed that, often when we make changes to Legendary or Set items, only changes to Set Item powers are retroactive. There is a reason for this.

    The powers as they exist on Set Items have no variables. You always get a particular value, regardless of whether that item is Ancient or Primal.

    Powers on Legendary items, however, generally include variables. Retroactively applying an update to these kinds of items is much trickier, especially when it comes to generating unintended consequences or bugs. Do we issue rerolls to all the existing items? Are players okay with the potential that their existing item may turn out worse than it was prior to the patch? Does making the change create cases where legacy items might end up more powerful than the intended new level?

    Simply put, it creates a lot of potential database issues, and the best way to ensure everyone stays on equal footing is to deprecate the older version of the items. When items are updated like this, they are technically dropping as entirely new items, which is why existing ones don't update.

    This accomplishes two important philosophical goals: Ensuring legacy versions of items don't stay more powerful than newer, obtainable versions and maintains an equal playing field for everyone (everyone has the same new goal).

    Primals with their static nature raise an interesting question, but similar complications. I'm happy to pass this concern on, but to stay consistent with our item change philosophy, we will continue to only retroactively change Set Items.
  • 08/17/2017 02:31 PMPosted by Sèvén
    What exactly are the variables on primals? They always roll max value, and thus have no variable numbers, like set items. Why is this an issue then?


    A legendary affix on an item is different than the set bonus granted by a group of items. This is why sets can be retroactively changed; set bonuses aren't tied to one particular item.

    Think of it this way: A legendary power is a "bonus" affix on an item. As a hypothetical situation, if we were to just change an existing power, the game may want to (a) add a new affix on the old item or, more likely, (b) want to reroll the whole item in order to make sense of the change. The latter could still happen to a Primal, which could theoretically result in you having a very different item than the one you had before.

    Totally personal opinion here: Given the options, I'd prefer to spend the time hunting for a new item with my pretty-good-but-not-perfect Primal over risking my existing Primal potentially losing power. By creating new versions and deprecating the old ones, no one will lose power. There will just be a higher potential ceiling to reach after the patch.