[BUG] SoH nerf is broken (/w analysis)

  • Disclaimer : This post is not about how the SoH nerf was uneeded. The first part of the fix (ICD not reset when dual wielding) was needed because the weapon was clearly OP with channeled spells and it was clearly a bug. This post is about how the second part of the nerf was totally uneeded and broke the "on cast" effect on every single low proc coef skill because of blizzard ignorance and made the weapon totally worthless

    Blizzard decided to apply an "on hit" skill coef on a weapon that don't have an "on hit" proc.

    We are all ok to say that SoH pre-nerf was a bit OP. Why that ?
    Because the internal CD of SoH was not working when dual wielding.

    Blizzard decided to fix it and it was a GOOD thing. SoH now proc something like 2 times per second max with single target skills with high proc coef.
    And thats why its still very good with skills like Weapon Throw or Frenzy.

    Then Blizzard applied a second (and totally stupid) change.
    They decided, out of the blue, that SoH proc should use the proc coef of skills just like TF or Odyn.

    Its an error and its a proof that they don't have a clue how their own game works.

    TF and Odyn have "On hit" effects. It means that the proc is triggered every time you hit a monster.
    SoH is "On skill use" effect. It means that the proc is triggered when you use a certain skill.

    Why does skill coef exist ? Because AOE Skills hits multiple monster per cast. If you don't use an "On Hit" coef (0.13 for WW) the proc effect gonna apply
    way too much.
    WW hit frequency is 2 time your Sheet APS per second. Say you have 2APS, WW gonna hit 4 times per second.Say that 5 monsters are in your WW AOE.
    Its now 4*5 = 20 attacks per second. Its obvious that 20 Odyn proc per second would be totally OP. Thats why low coef on aoe skills exist.

    Take the SoH now.
    IT IS NOT an "on hit proc". You won't get more proc if you hit more monsters.
    Thats why its totaly stupid to apply the super low proc coef of aoe skills on hit.

    Take a Wizard. SoH use a super low proc coef on Frozen Orb now because Frozen Orb can hit 20 monsters.
    But you don't have a chance to proc for every single mob hit by your Frozen Orb. You only have a chance each time you CAST frozen orb.
    How stupid is that ? huh ? The coef were created because it would be stupid to proc "on hit" 20 time for each orb.
    They were not created to proc "on cast" effects 1 time out of 20 orbs.

    Thats why the second part of the nerf was an error.
    And thats why SoH is now utter trash with any aoe skill and still super strong if your class is lucky enough to have a coef 1 elemental skill like barbs and monks.

    Blizzard failed because they don't even know how this game works.

    This part of the nerf is bad, non intended, and should be reverted.
    The ICD fix is ok and needed.
    The proc coef is wrong and absurd.

    Blue Answer Wanted Here.

    04/17/2014 06:24 PMPosted by Nevalistis
    Because there's definitely a lot of conversation going on for this topic, it's taken me a while to zone in on the information that's really missing from this discussion.

    In short, Shard of Hate has a chance to proc both on hit AND on skill use. This means that its Legendary affix can occur both when the item hits a target AND when an appropriate elemental skill is used. The chance for Shard of Hate to proc on skill use also runs through the associated skill's proc scalar. There is no other item in the game (to my knowledge) that works quite like this, so Shard of Hate is unique in that regard. It's reasonable for there to be some confusion as a result, given there's no direct comparison to other items.

    Its Legendary power does also obey an internal cooldown. This functionality was previously being ignored by players who were dual wielding, but it now works correctly post-hotfix. Bear in mind you might not always see the on-hit and on-skill use proc occur back-to-back because of the item's internal cooldown.

    We feel the item itself is in a pretty good place at the moment, and comparable to other on-hit items, if not a little better by virtue of the fact that it has additional opportunities to proc. Prior to the bug fixes, Shard of Hate was wildly over-performing in ways far above and beyond other gearing options, and as such, was an outlier that merited some adjustment.


    This answer contains several errors and false statements (or lies).

    1) There is no "on hit" effect at all in SOH proc. Try to cast Frozen Orb or Electrocute on 10 monsters in COTA. Then do the same in town and the proc rate gonna be the same. If this weapon had an "on hit" effect it would proc 10 times more when you hit 10 times more monsters.Just like every other "on hit" weapons.
    It does not.

    You are Wrong.

    2) The internal cooldown have nothing to do with aoe skills proccing SOH every 5 to 10 seconds because single target high coef skills proc it evey second or even more.
    I can proc SoH 2 times per second in town with any kill that have a 100% proc coef.
    Is there really an ICD to begin with ? Or is it a lie too ? Because as soon as i use a fast skill with 100% proc coef i always get 1 proc per cast no matter how fast i cast.

    You are Wrong.

    3) There is a weapon with similar problem. Sorry if you don't know it : WIzardspike dagger. Its not "complicated". Its a simple problem with a simple origin.

    You are Wrong.

    4) The weapon doesnt perform "well". Of course it was OP with channeling skill proccing it 5 times per second, thats why we needed a working internal cooldown fix. DONE. But its not a "fix" to put the "on hit" coef on this weapon. If you use chain lightning or frozen orb your "fix" make it proc one out of 15 casts. Before the nerf it was 1 every cast wich was not op and on par with high coef single target spell. The ICD is enough to keep the channeled spells at bay without destroying this weapon for no other reason than ignorance.

    You are Wrong.

    You don't want to admit that the second part of the fix was an error.The weapon is still "legendary" with any elemental high coef skill. Get it ?
  • Because there's definitely a lot of conversation going on for this topic, it's taken me a while to zone in on the information that's really missing from this discussion.

    In short, Shard of Hate has a chance to proc both on hit AND on skill use. This means that its Legendary affix can occur both when the item hits a target AND when an appropriate elemental skill is used. The chance for Shard of Hate to proc on skill use also runs through the associated skill's proc scalar. There is no other item in the game (to my knowledge) that works quite like this, so Shard of Hate is unique in that regard. It's reasonable for there to be some confusion as a result, given there's no direct comparison to other items.

    Its Legendary power does also obey an internal cooldown. This functionality was previously being ignored by players who were dual wielding, but it now works correctly post-hotfix. Bear in mind you might not always see the on-hit and on-skill use proc occur back-to-back because of the item's internal cooldown.

    We feel the item itself is in a pretty good place at the moment, and comparable to other on-hit items, if not a little better by virtue of the fact that it has additional opportunities to proc. Prior to the bug fixes, Shard of Hate was wildly over-performing in ways far above and beyond other gearing options, and as such, was an outlier that merited some adjustment.
  • 04/17/2014 06:36 PMPosted by Delkerramak

    The whole reason for the uproar about this (and as per your response I know you didnt glean this) is because the proc coefficients on abilities such as Whirlwind (13% coeff), which also does laughable damage by itself, don't permit build diversity because you actually get more AoE damage from skills//procs by using Single Target abilities that have nearly 100% proc coefficients.


    We haven't yet completed a full tuning pass after the launch of Reaper of Souls. While we started with a few changes to some generators and single-target skills with the 2.0.4 patch, that doesn't mean we're done with evaluating all the classes and their skills.

    While I don't have exact details to share at this moment, tuning and balancing is something always being discussed amongst our developers. I'm certainly happy to carry back feedback on skills that you (or others) feel need another look, but that would be a separate case entirely from the bug fixes for Shard of Hate. A bugged weapon shouldn't be a solution to an issue with a skill - if Whirlwind or other skills need to be re-evaluated, then that should be a separate (if related) discussion, and I can certainly pass that on!